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Council of Saints


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#26 Solus

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 02:29 PM

Just curious, when you do CTF games, to you teach the players how to play before they join? I know several players who didn't like the feature because they didnt know what they were suposed to do, and just got killed when they played.

Are you guys going to teach others how to defend theirself and how to escape?

*sniffs sadly* Banned from yet another chatroom without ever visiting it, or talking to those in it. :)

Good luck with this. :mrgreen:

#27 Maldrak

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 02:36 PM

|X
Some people don't seem to understand the term outlaw. Outlaw is not synonymous with evil. Famous outlaws who are not evil include robin hood, signers of the US declaration of independence, zorro, henry david thoreau, et cetera. If you're at all familiar with the AD&D alignment system, reputation is roughly analogous to the first part of alignment (lawful/neutral/chaotic : saint/neutral/outlaw).
|X
Excluding neutral/chaotic players who are good is as bad as including lawful players who are evil. As Eriana said, "|RI am *not* cool with telling someone I don't know - be they outlaw or non-saint - that I'm taking my level 118 rear end down to NPK.|X" Likewise, you should be "cool" with telling someone you do know who is an outlaw that you need assistance crossing the moat because $X, saint or outlaw, is camping the moat, or that you need assistance getting to the hermit under rune because your form is entirely 2nd class and the agro NPCs can kill them in before you reach the hermit.
|X
The "choice" that some people make in becoming outlaws is self-defense or defense of clan; for some people there also truly is no choice - a level 25 character should die in 1 round to a hero/archon. Web someone in NPK/CPK and you can force them to outlaw fairly rapidly if you're a fey/sidhe and know where the queen/king are, or have a friend with resurrect practiced and a few astrals.
|X
That said, good luck in your enterprise. A little naivete within your group shouldn't harm it much.

#28 Guest_yahweh_*

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 03:53 PM

is this starting to sound like the Jim Crow south to anyone else?

#29 Eriana

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 06:23 PM

For those of you who are talking about discrimination:

You come up with a better idea.

You come up with an idea that will keep second classers feeling safe to talk.

You come up with something that works.

I'll litsen.

However, until then - the best way for us to keep people safe - at least for Council related things - is to not allow those we don't know who kill things.

I had someone join today who really wasn't trying to go non-saint, but he got attacked a lot. I checked the info on PKzone.org and I said he could stay. We're not being mean - we just don't want to be killed.

I do have some outlaws that I would feel safe asking for help from - however, it seems unfair to say *my* outlaw buddies can come in and no one else's can. This group doesn't ban other friendships - this is just a breeding ground for new friendships between people who don't seek out non-arena pk.

Again - any questions can be directed to me ingame. :D

Eri

#30 Guest_skitari_*

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 06:33 PM

You know whats funny? Many of us outlaws play Saint alts. You're not keeping yourself any safer. I have no problem with any except the image that you're trying to give outlaws. But I will think twice before helping you guys again since you want to discriminate against me, I think I should do the same back.

The only reason people bother to harass you guys is because they get a kick out of it. We dont think we're going to ruin it by any means, just getting a laugh out of it.

#31 Apollyon

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 07:17 PM

Well, obviously you aren't familiar with our means. Even with saint players that we don't know we won't discuss anything too sensitive. We are quite cautious because we know there are many out to kill us. Comes with the territory.

#32 Matthia

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 07:42 PM

I agree with skitari here, this idea is funny.

I like it thougt, might make some of you PK haters enter cpk every now and again! :) In that case, everyone should join. By the way, I'm not on the ban list (to my knowledge) and I have at least 2 alts taking information from the saints. It's fun. If anyone wants to know what they are doing, be sure to let me know!! :)

#33 Jibba

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 08:19 PM

This would work if clan alliances were imp'd.

*mutter*

#34 Geobog

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 08:56 PM

So what happens when a member drastically loses a lot of reputation and becomes a non-saint with not-so-high reputation, yet still remains helpful to the council?

#35 Solus

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 11:16 PM

none of you can stand up to outlaws by yourself so you want to form a large group just so if you go into pk you can have a form of 9 and try to ruin a part of the game for a certain group who just happens to find it enjoyable?


Ruin part of the game? How so? If they bring a group of people, it means you have a group to fight. You can also have a form.

#36 Ryechaser

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 11:33 PM

You know groups like this actually make me want to give up my life of being a saint and PK them. :P

#37 Elan

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 11:46 PM

Hm, the bare skeleton of the idea would of course be interesting, but as with every out of the ordinary idea the emerges, it is open to criticism. I don't agree with everything the council/chat room is doing, but I am still behind them. I do think we're quick to discriminate, but then again, folks don't get a bright red name by saving kittens. A lot of it comes down to how thick you RP, so I guess the best thing to do would be to let it play it's course.

#38 Guest_seriun_*

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 12:51 AM

2 months yeah right, i give it 6 hours after this post. :P

#39 Chemisse

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 08:13 AM

I think it is important to remind people that Spiritwalk is a non pk clan. Our clan is a one of explorers and adventurers. We do not hunt outlaws or anybody else. We do support and participate in the Saint Alliance. There may be some saints in some clans who hunt outlaws, but we do not, and it is my understanding that the Saint Alliance does not exist for that purpose.

#40 Haley

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 09:37 AM

I am going to Quote Matthia

By the way, I'm not on the ban list (to my knowledge) and I have at least 2 alts taking information from the saints. It's fun. If anyone wants to know what they are doing, be sure to let me know!!



I'm a Guardian , doing my things alone and in silence , it's against my morals and standards to fight player characters ,I hate PK and CPK even more.
ppl that cpk and go as far as to sac other players eq or even dare ask real life money for it to give it back are pure evil and show a reflection of how they are in real live and are able to kill there as well.
this so called all *saints* is nice for those who like to join but here's my point.
How do you ppl know who is who , how do you check if one of your so called loyal members isn't a alt from for 1 Matthia or any other outlaw who's on your ban list

#41 Guest_drysten_*

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 11:16 AM

This council of saints has turned into a gigantic farce. Having been in the relay of the council since it's inception, I feel that I do have a unique voice in this debate. As I said in the beginning, I'll wait and see. I'm done waiting, and feel that I need to share what I see is going on. I have refused operator privilages numerous times, but have offered opinions when asked.

In light of the labels being thrown arround, I will clearly define my definition of an outlaw, saint, and non-outlaw as the game defines them. If I place a label on any individual, it is only becuase that is what the game says you are at the present time. If you've been following this debate, you understand why this disclaimer is sadly necessary.

--

Concerning the Saints(and non-outlaws):
As I said before, I have been folling the saint channel from the beginning. Their first action after forming the chat room and setting operators was to begin the banning. Last time I looked there are 72 individuals banned from saint chat. Initially, the banning was retribution for getting killed--how can you even reason banning someone who has never even stepped foot into the chat room? Currently, the banning is about stifling all voices. I'm sure if I had defended the outlaws voicing their opinions, I would have been banned myself.

From the beginning, many on the council of saints have been worried about "outlaw infiltration". Why should a council of saints be worried about outlaws listening to what they say? We all know that there are really no secure forms of communication in game other than tells. Many people have multiple characters in multiple clans with varying reputations. If you want to finalize a run time and details, do it through tells.

Some of us have managed to make good out of the saint chat. Giving people that don't want to enter PK easy tickets into PG, or helping people get that piece of equipment they want. This working together to help people works just fine. This has been the one benificial aspect of the council of saints that I have seen.

It has been stated by one of the two main operators that he hates all outlaws. This hate is running rampant on the sate channel. Sadly this hate of outlaws isn't uncommon. We've had to deal with it in my clan since the inception of the council. It really is on the level of fighting hate with hate.

This hate is just taking role-playing too far, and refusing to deal with people on an individual basis. If you are an outlaw, they have already made up their minds about you. If you are a saint new to the chat room, they don't trust you at all. Until the council of saints treats all players as individuals and ends the hate, I for one must revoke my support for the measure--if I relay, it's only for entertainment value anymore. Let's forget the stretches of imagination on comparing outlaws to the real world as well. In the US, killing a convicted murderer in cold blood is still murder.

--

Concerning the Outlaws:
I have had 3 experiences with outlaws in the council of saints. The first group just popped in to see what would happen--and was promptly banned. The speed at which they banned was highly related to the amount that they PK'd.

The second group has simply tried to stir up trouble. This harrassment has been thrown to the forefront only by people whining after action has been take by the immortals. This harrassment has been the least of the council's problems, in my opinion. The council of saints is nothing more than the flavor of the week for getting banned.

The third group is actually the most distressing. They came into the chat room using alts, and tried to understand what was going on. In many cases they tried to explain why they PK'd, and how they could help the saints learn to not be victims. Skitari, for one was interrogated at length for his PK's on Christmas day. Having never denied that he PK's why should he have been interrogated about his PKing? What makes PKing on Christmans day worse than December 20th? He offered to help show the ropes about escaping and surviving in PK.

Yes, we all know that there are many childish outlaws. Yes, we all know that there are many honorable and trust-worthy outlaws. At no point has the council of saints made an effort to do anything but hate the label.

--

I must remind everyone that the council of saints and/or my views do not necessarily reflect the views of the leaders of Spiritwalk and Northstar. We all know that Spiritwalk is non-pk. In fact, many of Spiritwalks numerous alliances have been called into question by one of the leaders of the council of saints. I guess since Spiritwalk has managed to get along with many outlaws, they can't be trusted by many of the saints. Don't worry about my views--if I have misrepresented Niky, she'll deal with me directly. As for Northstar, we aren't anti-PK at all. Several of you know that I've been learning to PK--with various degrees of success--and still retain my saint status. Hoover and myself also quest keep regularly regardless of trunking. To quote Hoover concerning the council of saints, "If the game were stonger RP based, like many MUDs are, that would be fine, but in this game, that's not a good thing to go for."

PK is a part of the game...Hating it and the PKers will never make it go away.

#42 Ryechaser

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 11:27 AM

From what I can see this council has more hate and bad manners than any of the PKers that I've come across. This is why I'd be happy to see this trash disapear. Outlaws will probably focus in and kill them. I haven't seen any names listed in the council that can actually take a decent fighter.

#43 Slugo

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 11:33 AM

i'm sorry to say but most of you are idiots.

What is a saint in MM. It is someone who's reputation is at 100. I've seen all these arguments about the definition of "saint" and some rather ignorant and arrogant views about this council and why it was formed.

Even so far as people defending alts that are saints while their main character is an outlaw.

All must abide by the rules of the chat channel. If you don't like it. don't enter it. Enough said and if I hear one more word about this. I'm going to start killing people :twisted:

#44 Nalithien

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 11:37 AM

I have never claimed to be a 'principal operator' of the Council. I have merely been a representative of my clan. I hate Outlaws with a passion, and the entire reason I started my clan was to act on my hatred. The title of the clan alone should lead anyone to believe that. For the fellow Council members and allies, no less, to be chastising me for my views makes me want to seriously wonder why they chose to ally with us in the first place. I am personally withdrawing my support from the Council. I am a man of action, not words. I don't care much for subtleties. Lonny will be the sole representative of our clan in the Council. If the Council wants to whither away from inaction and disregard all of the priniciples it was established upon, so be it.
On a side note, I know I'm not the only one that hates Outlaws. For those of you that actually have a backbone and STAND FOR SOMETHING, we're recruiting.

I'm done with this nonsense. Grow a spine.

#45 Unbeliever

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 11:48 AM

Why was my post deleted?

#46 Slugo

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 11:50 AM

haha! too bad you weren't deleted.

#47 Moostafa

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 11:54 AM

I can't say I'm happy with either side of this debate.

I don't like all they steriotypes being thrown out at either side. Not all outlaws are bad, and not all saints can't fight in pk.

I'm going to sit in the back row as I watch the war between saints and outlaws go nuts. That is what this channel has seemed to ignite. War.

I'm not going to say anything else because people I know well are acting very foolish about this topic.

#48 Kanstryner

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 03:09 PM

:? It's a good idea in theory, but you're going about it entirely wrong if you ask me.

#49 Nemori

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 03:18 PM

Something should be said now, and I don't want to be the one to say it, but I will face the consequences later. As a leader of Northstar, and having had discussions with the leadership of Spiritwalk, we would like to make it apparent that neither clan stands behind this council in any official way. Some of our members participate in the actions of this group, and a lot of the members are my friends, but a lot of their "enemies" are people whom I trust. Spiritwalk is blatantly anti-pk, having friends both saint, non-saint, and outlaw. Northstar does not believe in unfair pk, and this should include an outlaw pking someone an entire class beneath them in an unfair fashion, but as well a saint doing the same thing to an outlaw. Northstar judges its friends individually. I hope that this incident would not anger any allies of either of these clans, as any use of our names in an official manner has been a misunderstanding.

Personally though while I may not follow the doings of this group I think it is a good thing for someone to start, assuming the hatred on both sides could be quelled. Any channel that offers people more help and information is a good thing.

---
Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance.

#50 Blackx

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 03:37 PM

I claim the letter x as my own and everyone that uses it owes me 5k a letter!