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Questing is overpowered


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#26 Solus

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 01:29 AM

:? I don't recall anything near that high on Avros. I rejoiced when I got my four practices.
So I am guessing Sigil was just better...

#27 Veerat

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 06:46 AM

I think that some people have lost sight of the fact that to an experienced player, many of the quests are easier and therefore may seem 'over-rewarding'. However, to a new player they are quite challenging, especially based on the number of yells in Sigil, Rune, etc. So before anybody goes changing everything, remember you're not the only person who does these quests.

#28 Trajan

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 12:45 PM

I think that we are losing sight of these inflated rewards. First class quest should average 30/3 (Maybe 25/2). 2nd class should average 45/4. 3rd class quests should average 55/5. 4th class 65/6. Archon 80/8. But going along with these averages, the quests should be of comparable difficulty to match them.

For example: A 1st classer who has to go from templeton to tellerium to visit some jokers and buy some crap from a shop shouldn't be getting 40/4 or more. While, the same first classer having to travel to lowangen to kill something, or to desert thorn and recover an item should be rewarded more handsomely.

On the same token: An archon who has to go from sigil to dio to mess around with the emperor and the tetrarchs shouldn't be getting 50/5 but more of a 40/4. Yes its only a 10/1 difference, but you have to make it remotely fair.

Reason being, as you progress you have more things to practice, and they become more expensive. The new player isn't going to be a quest camper, like you all know, is the way to get everything practiced now. He/she will multiclass as soon as he/she gets 250 tourms and hits level 60 (or will stay until they think they should multiclass), because the idea of progression in the game is very alluring.

There should be a benefit to 2nd/3rd/4th class questing over 1st. Yes there is a limit blah blah blah, but it's like the CEO of a company getting paid the same as the mail boy. The mail boy does a more tedious job and the CEO does more unique and impactful (dangerous) work. The CEO should get paid more. Which is the case now for the most part. However, it seems there is large debate that many of the 1st class quests are overrewarding and I think it should be taken a look at.

Yes, I am sure there are outliers here where X player has to go to CPK, the occasional quest that gives an inflated reward I have no problem with. I am saying the general reward system of quests needs to be tailored more on a tiered scale, not the sine wave of rewards we have now.

Just my $21.75

#29 Veerat

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 01:54 AM

If we're only talking about 1st class campers then that's different but you can't lower rewards for new players, who don't have that knowledge because of those who have decided NOT to multi. Maybe at 60th level you should have to follow the 'no more than 2 quests from a QM per 2 hours (irl) will be given to a player'...I don't know if that would help but it would certainly nudge some campers.

#30 Dupre

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 02:33 AM

Questing is for squares.

#31 Trajan

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 04:26 PM

you can't lower rewards for new players



Yes you can, that is the whole point. Shifting this overinflated system into something stable. If new players EXPECT those rewards, then the quest system has done it's job.

I am not targeting camping, I am targeting the quest system as a whole.

#32 Darkslayer

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 07:44 PM

Look it is already takes WAY too long to build a max archon character! Not everyone has the patience or time to blow tens of thousands of hours on an online character or for that matter even likes/participates in questing. The game has already made many changes in the last 5 years that have greatly increased the time it takes to build a character so that those people who do play the game 24 hours a day will not become easily "bored" and stop playing. This has included slashing quest rewards across the board and increaseing practice point costs across the board. As someone with a life outside of the game, I resent that the current system really punishes less "active" players for the sake of such players. The game is still fun and I have good friends, which is why I continue to play and donate. The game has also grown in other positive ways which has increased my level of interest (marks, new areas, mini quests and other features). If anyone wants to suggest quest rewards be lowered, please keep it to yourself. I have average SP and HP, really crappy base stats and I have a bare minimum of skills trained. Please stop suggesting ways to make my training harder.

The rewards, if anything, are too low for the large majority of players. If someone wants to play the game 24/7 and is wracking up crazy amounts of pp and qp all the power to them. Please do not let them be the standard by which everyone must be measured against.

Darkslayer

#33 Trajan

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:35 PM

Look it is already takes WAY too long to build a max archon character!



This shouldn't be the goal.

I am living proof you don't need to be maxed to be successful in PK. Granted my record isn't perfect, but I am satisfied with it.

They are adding so many things to the game like marks, and miniquests, questing should be something to do as a side thing, not as a primary source of building your character. Besides, I'm not saying drop everything to 10/1, those are just averages. It would switch also the time spent in classes towards hero/archon from 1st class/2nd class.

No matter how much you want to do it, you can't beat this game. There will always be something you haven't done.

If you become bored then don't friggin play. There are many people who AREN'T bored.

Also, please learn how to use the enter key.

#34 Veerat

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 11:40 PM

Trajan, I'm still at a loss as to how your proposals to fix this so-called 'over-rewarding' that's taking place benefits either players or the game itself? I think, taken as a whole, that the rewards for 1st and 2nd class are fine.

I do agree with you that there is no 'beating' this game. However, I do agree with Darkslayer that the game should not be geared towards benefiting those who somehow are able to play seemingly round-the-clock (or even 4 hours a day).

I still think you are confusing the issue of what a new player knows vs. what an experienced player knows and how this affects the difficulty of a quest. Searching for things in any given town, if you've never done it can be quite challenging. All quests become 'easier' once you've done them or someone tells you. I'd like to hear how fixing this supposed problem benefits the game, players or anyone for that matter. Thanks.

#35 Solus

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 02:01 AM

I'd like to hear how fixing this supposed problem benefits the game, players or anyone for that matter.


There are several reasons...

One being, people tend to avoid doing certain quests because other quests are overrewarding, or the said quest is underrewarding. If they gave the proper rewards, maybe people would be more likely to do them?

Another being, maybe it will make it so camping isn't a prefered method? Why should people multi when they are getting better rewards, easier quests, AND they don't have to spend as many practices to train a skill?
Some people tend to camp until they get bored with the game, rather than multing and getting to see new things, spells, features, and etc...

#36 Fluke

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 08:54 AM

lets make sigil castle npk again, that will really spice up questing in sigil and make for traveling to sigil worthwhile! i know too many high lvl players that dread the thought of sigil b/c its a lowbie town or a newbie town, granted lower lvls are transported to sigil in some cases. but there are precautions for being npked ect. when all is said and done sigil would be a great place to go again! (why else put the manticore there???)

#37 Trajan

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 11:44 AM

However, I do agree with Darkslayer that the game should not be geared towards benefiting those who somehow are able to play seemingly round-the-clock



If you would read my post. This isn't a benefit to people who play around the clock. This just shifts the time spent on QUESTING to other portions of the game that provide the same rewards.

AND AGAIN, I'm NOT saying to make all quests 10/1. But like most things you jump to conclusions. It would also shift the time spent from 1st/2nd class to the later classes, AS I STATED BEFORE.

Just because you can't churn out another alt as quickly, doesn't make this idea wrong.

#38 Durova

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 12:36 PM

Trajan, the game already features in place to address quest camping.

:cow: The first class quest limit of 1000 quests.
:cow: At class level 60, characters practice all skills and spells at their next class's ratio while half of their quests still return only their old class's rewards.
:cow: Some areas such as CTF require characters to multiclass to enter.
:cow: Other low level areas such as Verity and the beehive are still available to characters who have recently multiclassed.

Before you can convince me that a major game feature like the quest system needs an overhaul, you first need to make the case that lowbie campers are still a significant problem. Most of the players who were known for this when I started playing have either archoned or left the game. I don't see a new crop of people like that, either on Durova or on my alt.

Demonstrate if you can that this 'problem' isn't already solved.

#39 Trajan

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 02:31 PM

At class level 60, characters practice all skills and spells at their next class's ratio while half of their quests still return only their old class's rewards.



Quest Templeton at level 60 and almost ALL of your quests are 2nd class reward quests. As the thread by Zakainen proved a while back.

Also, That limit is NOT something to shoot for. It is an unfortunate barrier than Vassago had to put in to nudge progression in people's characters.

This also has mostly nothing to do with quest camping. It has to do with overrewarding first classers for doing easy tasks. People will do whatever the hell they want to on this game and we shouldn't force them otherwise. The whole quest system needs to be revamped to provide archons/heros with the most valuable while difficult quests period. In the process, also generating a tiered reward system.

You guys manage to overreact to those "averages" I posted when in fact they are just averages. Some quests will be more, some will be less. I see far too many 1st/2nd classers getting between 4-7 practice quests. Whether that means we need to cut quest minimum levels from 60-120 to 61-120 that is uncertain. I think it's just a temporary solution for an ongoing problem.

Perhaps the solution is just targeting Templeton quests since those are the most prominent in my mind. I don't know ALL of the quests in the game. I can only go from my experience of building 4 different characters to hero+.

You are all so defensive so that your precious little quest alts don't get screwed over in the process.

#40 Trajan

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 02:40 PM

Perhaps the solution is creating the same quest boundaries other classes have.

2 quests per QM per 6 hours, max quests 7?

This forces you to explore other towns?

I am not sure for certain, myself and Ich were discussing it over AIM.

The problem we came up with was that if all you are doing at level 60 is questing, that is a problem. Logging on to do 5 quests then leaving, what is the point? Granted that is what some people do, and I don't want to knock that by any means. I used to do it myself, but in the short run..what is the point?

#41 Haley

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 03:08 PM

The problem we came up with was that if all you are doing at level 60 is questing, that is a problem. Logging on to do 5 quests then leaving, what is the point? Granted that is what some people do, and I don't want to knock that by any means. I used to do it myself, but in the short run..what is the point?



the point is some people have jobs , families and many other real life obligations and have to make choises , they choose to quest and then tend to more important things , don't screw these people over simply cus YOU think it's pointless , really keep your hands away from the quest system don't screw us questors over even more as we have been screwed over already the past years

#42 Durova

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 03:08 PM

Trajan, you're undermining your own argument by referring to Zakainien's thread. Lady Templeton's quests don't 'overreward' for first class practice ratios because everyone who can get a quest from her already pays second class prices to train everything. She's also the only quest master who sends level 60s into CPK. Just poking one's nose into a CPK room is enough to get all of a lowbie's gear ganked so overall questing in that town is balanced already.

The notion of first classers sweeping up 6% better for a single quest has always been an illusion.

#43 Trajan

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 03:25 PM

the point is some people have jobs , families and many other real life obligations and have to make choises , they choose to quest and then tend to more important things , don't screw these people over simply cus YOU think it's pointless , really keep your hands away from the quest system don't screw us questors over even more as we have been screwed over already the past years



The questing system now is better off than the questing system was before. You guys make it sound like I have a decision in the matter. I am presenting my argument to you all, I think something should be done. This post does nothing for me, Haley. I have a job, I have 2 jobs in fact, I go to school, etc. I'm also not trying to screw over current questers, some quests reward too much, they should be lowered. Thats the plainest as I can get the problem. Of course you aren't going to agree with me, you are a questwhore. Excuse the term.

#44 Solus

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 03:49 PM

The notion of first classers sweeping up 6% better for a single quest has always been an illusion.


Actually, its quite true. Even in second class, my Half-Elf pays 1 practice per % on some skills.

keep your hands away from the quest system don't screw us questors over even more as we have been screwed over already the past years


1. Quests have been made MUCH better than they used to be during the begining of 4.0.

2. In some ways, this may help questers. I regretted muliting a bit because I was getting better rewards in the second class than third. Because I was used to the overrewarding quests I was getting during second class, I was disappointed when I multied.

#45 Trajan

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 06:36 PM

Which therein lies a problem. There is an evident gap in the rewards for the classes. 2nd are getting better than third, some 1st are getting better than 2nd, etc.

How to solve the problem seems to be the hard part.

I brought up a solution, but obviously it has a few flaws.

Remember this, you can't please everyone.

#46 Ciali

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 09:53 PM

I dont want to imply that some quests arent over-rewarding, because the 8 prac Templeton quests certainly seem generous for first classers, even with increased practise costs.

However, the thread that Zakainen started a while back was misleading. Yes there are 4-5-6 pp quests in Templeton, one or two 7pp, one or 2 8pp quests . . . There are also 3pp quests that send you to Tellerium, Templeton and FGK. There are 2pp quests. The majority of quests seem to be 4pp, which I dont think is overrewarding for players who now have increased practise costs.

Granted, there are some people with oodles of time who turn down all but 5pp quests and above. To get 5 quests that give you 5+ pp, you'd probably have to request AT LEAST 15 quests (and probably more). Most of us don't have this kind of time, to hang around a questmaster, waiting out a timer. Its boring, and a waste of time for many people. Although a select few do it that way, most people have neither the patience, desire or time to spend their time on MM that way. It just doesnt work that way.

#47 Guest_dricks_*

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 10:42 PM

What you dont realize. Most of these quests that are being altered are affecting 2nd classer. If you want i could post more than 20 quests ive seen change that are 60-120. And as my main alt being a 120, hes being zarked right now. But obviously that doesnt matter now does it Unbeleiver? Aslong as it doesnt affect archons. Im sure your not complaining about those archon quests that are over rewarding.


Thanks Immortals.

#48 Trajan

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 11:23 PM

I have done 4 quests at archon, so I guess I don't see where you are coming from. That is how it should be though. Archons are the pinnacle of this game, they should be rewarded the most.

#49 Sauriel

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 11:52 PM

The irony in all of this is that I have touched only one old quest since my inception as the quest immortal. I have been vigorously adding over 500 quests to try to get to a point where I can review the old quests.
I do not see where any of you (specifically Dricks) get your information since only ONE quest reward has been altered, other than to fix a description or to fix a task that was inappropriate for the quest, that is it. I'm not here to "screw" questers as much as you may think. I want there to be fair quests for the rewards that they yield.
Trajan, I don't like the idea of averages or a tier system but you had some strong ideas. What I do like is having rewards that fairly represent the level of quester and the amount of difficulty the quest yields. Haley among others, you are correct that not everyone has alot of time to spend on here and I'd like to create a safe balance that reflects that temporal restriction. I think the quest system for first classers is fine the way it is, but for it to work the way it should as I stated earlier the quest difficulty, and level range should reflect proper rewards.
I will be doing quests on a case by case basis to fix rewards and to get us to a point of buoyancy where we don't have threads like this (even if it was a sarcastic jab). I will need your help as a player base to spot potentially over-rewarding (yes I know this is like stealing candy and then going back to the store to pay for it :D ) or even under-rewarding quests. I have a feeling when we find a safe balance, the ends will justify the means.

On another note, everyone that has submitted quests and has not received their RU payments. I will be finished with everything in a couple of weeks. I thank you for your patience and keep sending those submissions in. May the Powers be with you!

-Aethyn
Quest King



#50 Trajan

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 11:56 PM

Aethyn served me :(

I beg to differ.



I don't see how? You quest and quest and quest to get to where? Archon eventually. While it might not be your first thought, even Extemper (A prominent 1st class pker) eventually archoned. As I said before, it's the pinnacle of the game. You should be rewarded the most for the most difficult quests.

Do you need me to get you a box of tissues?