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website contest


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#26 Solus

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 05:15 PM

Where is the mark information on their site?
--
Even if it is item information and such, this stuff has to be gathered. Its not like no work went into obtaining it.

Cwn Annwn has a vareity of gizmos, trackers with superior formatting, some useful databases, and information about theirself.

#27 Ryshad

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 05:17 PM

If you register you get a marks database, although it is still a very useful site.

#28 Drahylin

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 05:27 PM

Cwn Annwn has the restring machine, which i love, though their 'Gear Dummy' needs some tweaking done to it...all in all a great site, and soon itwill have more quests and better hints than PKzone.org

#29 Karynn

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 06:10 PM

Hmm.. No offense DB but between your two websites I prefer Cwn Annwn's

:frog: nicer to look at
:frog: easier to navigate
:frog: Doesn't have a ton of unfinished pages stating "no text on this page"
:frog: every page doesn't have links to OTHER sites for information I'm looking for (if I wanted to be on the other sites I'd be there and not on YOURS)

Good think I'm not a judge eh?

#30 Siege

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 06:33 PM

There is plenty on The Cwn Annwn's website that is clan member written, it just isn't all that obvious.

#31 Tejon

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 11:56 PM

I'm glad most of you like the clanannwn.net site. The site is primarily meant to be a clan site, with information about 92 and its members. It is there so we have a place to profile ourselves, show off our blogs and our artwork, and because we're proud of our clan and its history. We also provide game-related information (maps, tools, databases, guides, forums, logs, etc) in an effort to 'give something back' to the community. That content is something we are proud of as well, and I'd rather not see our efforts dismissed as a copy-and-paste job.

I will be the first to point out that the item, NPC, and quest databases have text verbatim from the game due to the nature of that type of thing, but that's pretty much it. We have gone to a lot of trouble to *not* just copy and paste stuff from the game. For example, we have an original description of every single spell and every single proficiency that players receive in the skill database. We don't use any of the official maps, instead creating all new ones. Zazou and I wrote all but about 10 lines of the JavaScript that powers all those tools.

We do not copy from other sites either. We have a trainer database and I know I could just go over to AODojo and copy and paste all their info in. But by policy, we do not do that. Instead we created a crapload of alts and leveled them and dragged them all over with the sole purpose of typing 'practice' at each trainer with each class. When we wanted maps, I went to Botanicus and said 'Hey, you mind if I digitize the VMAPs you collected, to turn them into world and continent maps?' And let me tell you, that process itself takes a long time. When we wanted to have a set of clanhall coordinates, Cwn Annwn members went and stood in every single Dark Antechamber for every single clanhall and looked at a sextant. When we needed artwork, 92 members took to their sketch pads and paint programs. In one case a member *pulled out oil paints and canvas* to create the clanhall. There are a few profile picks not originally created for the site, but they are all from the public domain.

That is not to say that 92 members have provided all the content either. The mark database has been contributed to by many different players, for example. (Note that marks are only available to registered members and marks not commonly known are only available to allies and members.) We have guides, comments, and forum posts from non-members. Non-members account for many of our database submissions, too. We take suggestions and help from everyone. We have a site suggestion board in our forums; please post if you have an idea or see a way to improve something.

I'm sorry to drop this essay-length post on the announce board, but I really did want to say thank you to those who paid us compliments above and clear up any misunderstanding about what actually goes into creating a site like clanannwn.net.

Tejon

#32 Vassago

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 12:00 AM

Sorry this has taken so long to get out, I am making some progress on it and should have the results up this week.

#33 Grandpa

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 02:51 AM

We do not copy from other sites either.



kinda hard not to copy them. May not go to their site and copy and paste, but you are giving the exact same information as other sites. There may be a few unique things in there but the info given hardly changes unless it is a personal opinion on a path, race, or area of the game.

All this is about who can make something thats more elegant but also easy to navigate.

600 pages worth of stuff may be great and all, but if i need to find out some specific information it might be a little more difficult to find it.

I havent looked at any websites nor do i care to, im just putting my 2 cents in.

#34 Goetia

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 04:47 AM

(From Grandpa):

We do not copy from other sites either.



kinda hard not to copy them. May not go to their site and copy and paste, but you are giving the exact same information as other sites. There may be a few unique things in there but the info given hardly changes unless it is a personal opinion on a path, race, or area of the game.

All this is about who can make something thats more elegant but also easy to navigate.

600 pages worth of stuff may be great and all, but if i need to find out some specific information it might be a little more difficult to find it.

I havent looked at any websites nor do i care to, im just putting my 2 cents in.



There were about 2-3 threads containing side by side references SHOWING that he copied other websites page by page.

And, for the record, to you Grandpa, just because the information is the same, does not mean that it was copied. When it's paraphrased, or changed the wording slightly (by like two or three spaces) to not be identical, or as was viewable on Cabal's site, completely verbatim, that's copied. I could write blue eyed blonde on my profile, does that mean I'm copying hitler/aryans? No. Lesson learned.

#35 Vintara

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 05:23 AM

I havent looked at any websites nor do i care to


Then why are you posting here?

#36 Katran

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 08:52 AM

*jumps up and down*

:(


#37 Botanicus

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 09:25 AM

Do not copy does not mean don't have similar information, at least not in my opinion. Many websites offer their opinions on leveling areas, class abilities and similar items, but they also include more of the 'harder' aspects of the game.

Anyone with a guide to a run will have similar data, it may be structured different, written differently, and may even take a different path (key 1, 2, 3, 4 vs key 2, 1, 4, 3) The key is to inject some level of creativity, originality, or a signature in each one. We see a lot of duplication because we see a layout of the information we like, and copy it. The we here is not Northstar mind you, but the playerbase as a whole.

Nearly all of the websites have put in a massive amount of work, and I hope that the players can continue to enjoy them for a long while.

#38 Grandpa

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 02:09 PM

(From Goetia):

(From Grandpa):

We do not copy from other sites either.



kinda hard not to copy them. May not go to their site and copy and paste, but you are giving the exact same information as other sites. There may be a few unique things in there but the info given hardly changes unless it is a personal opinion on a path, race, or area of the game.

All this is about who can make something thats more elegant but also easy to navigate.

600 pages worth of stuff may be great and all, but if i need to find out some specific information it might be a little more difficult to find it.

I havent looked at any websites nor do i care to, im just putting my 2 cents in.



There were about 2-3 threads containing side by side references SHOWING that he copied other websites page by page.

And, for the record, to you Grandpa, just because the information is the same, does not mean that it was copied. When it's paraphrased, or changed the wording slightly (by like two or three spaces) to not be identical, or as was viewable on Cabal's site, completely verbatim, that's copied. I could write blue eyed blonde on my profile, does that mean I'm copying hitler/aryans? No. Lesson learned.





to get the fire mark you go kill X mob.
GO kill X mob to obtain the fire mark.

Those are copying eachother in the context of creating a guide website to materia magica.

#39 Katran

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 03:49 PM

(From Grandpa):
to get the fire mark you go kill X mob.
GO kill X mob to obtain the fire mark.

Those are copying eachother in the context of creating a guide website to materia magica.


Would you like to give me instructions on how to obtain fire mark by killing X mob, without telling me that I need to kill X mob to get the fire mark?

*dizzy*

:(


#40 Guest_zarath_*

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 03:58 PM

Most of the threads about Cabal copying were created by us, since the majority was copied from ChaoS' site... The thing is, as we posted a lot, we don't care if people -copy- our site as long as they give us credit for the work they take.

But when you take information verbatim and then claim you wrote it all, and it's all original etc, when it clearly isn't well... that's just cheap and dirty. And Cabal broke the website rules in the fact that they say everything on there needs to be written by you and not taken from other sites.

#41 Blitzen

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 05:39 PM

How likely does it seem that there could be a 2007 contest?

#42 Solus

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 04:29 PM

Meh... I could name a few things...

#43 Guest_zarath_*

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 04:42 PM

There's -always- new stuff that can be done... Most of the time websites just don't think up innovative stuff and prefer to copy ideas already done and (sometimes) put them in a better format. :P

#44 Haley

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 05:37 PM

(From Blitzen):
How likely does it seem that there could be a 2007 contest?



just remove the clan site section problem solved.
give the first price to aodoja and we're done , it might stop the childish bickering of who copied who or what.
i think aodojo was the first next to mg main site to have their own page so all others more a less *copied* them changed a word or 2 and hey see a new web site is born.
all info comes from the game to start with ,after all with out Vass there wouldn't be MM, nor info, nor websites so every one takes stuff from Vass and in the rules stand to give credit to Him and add a link to MM every one does, even kyros.
stop being childish, each of you all go enjoy your own work be proud of it, tell your self your the better person here and ignore the rest.
have fun your all winners and all losers sure the prices are high but should it matter ? does it need to bring so much hate to a game supposed to be relaxing ?

i know ppl will say hear her but im used to it by now *bows out*

#45 Solus

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 08:14 PM

Though almost all information comes from the game, gathering such information takes a lot of effort and time. KoC and such have put a lot of work into gathering their information, so it isn't really fair to them that someone can press 7 keys a few dozen times and have all the information they have without even spending a fraction of the time or effort to gather such information.

That said, as far as judging the contest goes, plagiarism is a pretty minor problem.

--

As for AO winning, though I think their site deserves praise, I find them to be a little behind the times. While they have continued to exist, new sites have come about and provided new ideas and better formating to existing ideas.

--Solus, "Though they built the wheel, but we added chrome hubcaps and put them on cars."

#46 Egoful

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 12:59 AM

Can't we all just hug and get along? :(

#47 Guest_zarath_*

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 01:07 AM

I really think it's very unlikely that Cabal will place... And I would be pretty disgusted if they did. That being said, from all their plagerism I don't think they even deserve the consolation prize of 2 orbs (which they normally give to everyone who did a somewhat decent job).

In regards to Aodojo. Well, sad to say I agree... A lot of their stuff is far behind the times now. KoC's wasn't too flash 4 months ago either until we updated a lot of it. :(

#48 Botanicus

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 01:31 AM

I think we all agree that the information comes from one source, but its quite clear that the same data can be interpreted and represented in different ways.

The Vmap renderings for example. While minorly dated, and just a copy of the ingame data represented outside the standard limits, it is a large project, and as you have probably guessed its also one of my favorites.

Data like trainers, equipment, and marks are all simple data, but it can still be presented in several different ways.

I think we all agree AoDojo deserves a lot of respect for what they've offered the game over the years, but we also tend to agree that it has become dated.

Hopefully we'll get the results of the contest soon :>

#49 Kyros

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 05:48 AM

*beats dead horse* Whee!

#50 Primus

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 08:41 AM

The Cwn Awwn's equipment database is pretty hot to trot, as well.