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reward disparity...


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#26 Scrooge

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 07:41 AM

Your argument is not even relevant to the claim it claims to support (that I support class camping) let alone to the topic of debate. Is it your assertion that more practices for quests is always better? What if first class quests were changed to receive on average 50-60 pracs per quest and nothing else was changed, would that be a good idea? What if all quests were raised to reward 3000 practices on average, would that benefit the game? Your reasoning is flawed.

#27 Cyrell

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 07:53 AM

Stop making assumptions about my reasoning just because you fail to grasp it. It's not a red herring, though you keep claiming it is. People quest in order to gain practices. People use practices to train skills and spells they want. The current quest rewards allow person X to complete their goals in Y amount of time. Decreasing the current quest rewards just because someone arbitrarily deems that they are "too rewarding" will increase Y.

Examples:

Solus who has no life anyway will quest for years and years to get the elite skillset to make Nicfoot and his cronies jealous and inspire them to greater textual glory. It won't matter for people like this (class campers) what you do to quest rewards - they'll still get their kicks out of questing even if it they only get 0.000001% of a practice two years from now for going to Ogre Village, Rune, Vospire CPK, Avarice, the Faerie Plane and visiting Kessarian.

Somerandomnewb who just wants to train a weapon of each type (to prepare for any opponents with immunities), a few utility spells (poison, plague, curse), a healing spell or two (cure critical, cure light) a few attack spells of different types (fireball, frost, lightning bolt, harm) and a few defensive ones (shield, armor) will have to quest for a month or two to gain these goals if he was a level 120. Now let's give him 0.000001% of a practice two years from now if people like you start running the show and see which path he takes: a) turn into Solus the class camper or B) move onto another game that's less "fun and exciting".

Stop pretending you're a witty devil's advocate or an impeccable logician - or whatever the zark you're trying to do.

#28 Sabu

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 08:16 AM

If you're a class camper, you're going to camp classes regardless of quest rewards. Just follow the guidelines - make the first class quests reward less than archon quests, since they're easier.

This isn't splitting the atom, people.

#29 Duende

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 08:17 AM

That's a pretty horrendous false dichotomy, isn't it? Your only way to derive enjoyment is to either questwhore or go somewhere else? While practices are obviously necessary, questing isn't. You can get enough practices to do everything that you said merely by levelling and getting marks. You can't practice everything that way, but hey, why should you expect to? Unrealistic expectations will of course breed unrealistic demands. Don't feel that you need everything, because you really don't. The problem isn't with the questing system, but with the whole OCD player mindset.

#30 Vintara

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 09:04 AM

(From Cyrell):
Decreasing the current quest rewards just because someone arbitrarily deems that they are "too rewarding"


Your argument seems to hinge on quest rewards being slashed across the board. That's not what's being proposed.

#31 Cyrell

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 09:21 AM

(From Duende):
That's a pretty horrendous false dichotomy, isn't it? Your only way to derive enjoyment is to either questwhore or go somewhere else? While practices are obviously necessary, questing isn't. You can get enough practices to do everything that you said merely by levelling and getting marks.



I beg to differ. The reason I made Varys was because I believed this at the time. When I didn't spend 3 months questing at level 180 like I had spent 2 months questing at 120 and 1 month questing at level 60, I got what I deserved. The inability to kill many things efficiently my own level and a long, long road ahead of me with at least another 400 quests to grind to get staple wizard spells and rogue skills that I passed up when I multiclassed too soon. And I have 60 odd marks as well and it's still not enough.

Vintara, the general trend (last time I tried questing at least) was to reduce quest rewards - at least since Aethyn was doing the quests. I might be wrong as to the present situation, I might not. I'm not going to quest another character for months just to find out if you're right though, so I'll just take your word for it.

#32 Scrooge

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 02:37 PM

The red herring you were appearing to support through your use of quote-and-response was that I was a staunch supporter of class camping. Since my original claim was that these two quests (and any 2nd class quest rewarding more than 5 practices) are over-rewarding and since I am not a staunch supporter of class camping (evidence: I told you) the line of reasoning obviously is a red herring.

As I mentioned previously, your sudden attempt to change this into an entirely different argument is begging the question. You have failed to show the link between quest rewards and class camping and, indeed, in your second to last post, seem to emphasize their non-relation.

Sabu gives us a healthy dose of reason. There are, afterall, quest guidelines. Why feel the need to break them? This is not a call to cripple quest rewards for the sake of whimsy, this is a call to retard, and perhaps correct, the increasingly rampant and unnecessary trend of quest reward inflation.

#33 Antyrr

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 02:58 PM

the quest guidelines need to be redone to add bonus rewards to quest based on level, because otherwise you get 60s and 241s paid for the same thing.

10 qp for room journey with multiple cpk, obtain object from NPC at or above quester level, or kill NPC within/above quester level (e.g. sending a level 220 to kill Archibold in Diocletian Palace).



a level 60 who obtains an item from a mob level 60 or higher gets the same reward as a level 241 who obtains an item from a mob level 241 or higher, based on these rewards. also, sending a level 220 to kill archibold in dio doesn't seem like something that would be hard, which obviously brings up a rift between level and hardness. higher level mobs are on average harder per level than lower level mobs, and some mobs while strictly being higher level, are lower level mobs because that is who kills them. also, how is a quest submitter supposed to know the level of the mob in question, exactly?

most of the quest reward guidelines rely very heavily on the concept of level, when a submitter obviously doesn't know the level of many mobs in the game, just their comparative hardness.

another problem with the quest reward guidelines is it makes the rewards uniform. following them strictly leaves you with a quest that rewards qp/pp/xp/gp evenly based on some formula, when some quests should reward more qp and less pp and etc, because that makes the questing system more dynamic

also, using this flat guideline system still leaves level 240 and archons with really, really bad quests. i agree with former notions that there should be a base reward for each class, and then bonus reward for the comparative difficulty of the quest. something like...

2-4 pp, 20-45 qp, 100-25000 exp, 100-15000 gp for first classers
3-5 pp, 30-60 qp, 20000-50000 exp, 7500-23500 gp for second classers
5-7 pp, 50-70 qp, 45000-75000 exp, 25000-35000 qp for third classers
6-8 pp, 60-80 qp, 70000-150000 exp, 30000-45000 gp for fourth classers
7-15 pp, 70-160 qp, 0-5 ap, 30000-45000 gp for archon

based on the lowest level of the quest, and then each 'hard quest phase' (hidden phases, dangerous cpk, really tough mobs etc) would allow a sum of either pp/qp/exp/gp to be added to the base reward (not all four at once like the current system). obviously these numbers would have to be tweaked to serve as a better base, and they're in a range to allow some dynamicness and to allow that some quests are just harder than others as a base.

this way a base archon quest would reward 7/70/0/30000, for the easiest quest an archon would get (even if it's a quest a third classer could do, if it's archon only it should be archon rewarding. you get paid for your qualifications IRL, not for the work you do, hence why doctors always get paid more than masters), and then rewards would be upped from there for each hard phase. if the entire quest was hard, the base would be higher, and the exceptionally hard quests would add rewards therein.

#34 Cyrell

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 04:25 PM

(From Scrooge):
Since my original claim was that these two quests (and any 2nd class quest rewarding more than 5 practices) are over-rewarding



The next time you're playing a second classer you can save up all those quests you feel were "overcompensating" you for when you are an Archon and you get a 3 practice quest.

The rest of your post wasn't worth commenting on because I already addressed it -- but you've chosen to ignore and/or pretend that I wasn't making sense.

#35 Vintara

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 04:28 PM

Stop being a dick.

#36 Scrooge

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 04:36 PM

You're not making sense.

#37 Vaine

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 08:40 PM

While practices are obviously necessary, questing isn't. You can get enough practices to do everything that you said merely by levelling and getting marks.



That has got to be the biggest load of horsepoo that I've ever heard since I started playing this game, and it amazes me that it was made by someone in a position of power.

Excuse me for not knowing how, or having the ability to obtain 70+ marks. Or not having an inside friend that could share the information with me.

I'd also like to add, that I started in 02', and there was hardly the amount of marks available then as there is now. Questing was, and still is the ONLY way to consistently gain PP fast enough to build a character. I disliked questing, and I still do, so when making Vaine, and past characters, I didn't class camp. I multied because it kept the game somewhat enjoyable. I'm now a Hero, and am NOWHERE near decent standards. I'm 550HP shy of maxing, as well as about 700ST. My stats are horrendous. Let's not even get into my skill and spell lists. The only way for me to bring myself up to a decent level is to quest whore from now until 2020, simply because I don't have the time, nor the want to sit here and do it all day, everyday. Now, if quest rewards are going to be lowered, (from the complete crap that they already are) then I can scratch out 2020 and put 2030 instead, because all lowering rewards will do is encourage the need for class camping when it comes to the average player.

Again, not all of us are friends of Immortals who like to leak out information. And don't act like I'm being a prick for saying that, because we all know how damn well true it is.

#38 Goatleaf

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 01:38 AM

Random two cents I'd like to add onto this:

While practices are obviously necessary, questing isn't. You can get enough practices to do everything that you said merely by levelling and getting marks.



This statement may be true if the player is an alt of someone who already has the knowledge of the game to know which spells and skills are necessities and which aren't. However, to a first-time player (especially one with a spell-intensive path), I don't think this is true at all.

For example, Goatleaf is my first character, and I've never made an alt. I went druid first class, and have many instances of things like this:

4 air invocation ELE 17 2% 88%

New players (like I was) often have no idea what they should be practicing, or high they should practice it to. To then say that they still have enough practices to get essential skills without questing.

I think this logically implies that one either has to quest, or make an alt after getting the necessary knowledge from the game. I also have the feeling most people who find questing tedious (again, like me) would find making an alt just as tiresome.

People always point to the exceptions like Nizzak that questing isn't necessary, but it's a fallacy to use an exception to somehow prove a rule.

#39 Vintara

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 02:33 AM

I wish some immortals would give me secret information.

Seriously though, how can you possibly believe that first or second classers deserve to get the same rewards as heros and archons for a fraction of the effort?

#40 Cyrell

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 04:51 AM

(From Vintara):
Seriously though, how can you possibly believe that first or second classers deserve to get the same rewards as heros and archons for a fraction of the effort?



I don't think anyone's saying that. All I'm trying to point out is that lowering quest rewards any further than they are now makes it worse for everyone. I've said this before and I'll say it again - if you think a quest gives too much for too little work - submit an alteration to the quest that adds extra phases. Excuse me for the broad generalisation here, but I really don't think anyone in their right mind wants to work more for staple spells and skills. I'm sick of logging in on my first class alt and seeing yet another quest that was reduced to 2/20/500/5000. It makes me want to log right back out and go do something else, because I just realised I'll have to quest twice as much (because the quest was 4/30/1000/10000).

Vaine makes a good point as to the marks. I also didn't have the luxury on Cyrell of having over 50 first class marks. I actually had to do 400 quests to get staple skills and spells as a first class ranger (I'm not talking about extraneous fluff, I'm talking about the things I mentioned a few posts above - necessary things for any adventurer worth his mettle).

Also - you know I only trained things like 3rd attack, parry, acrobatics, shield block, cure critical, CURE LIGHT and counterspell early fourth class. You made fun of me enough times for it. But why do you think that was? At that point I already had over 1000 quests and I wanted to see more of the game instead of standing around with my thumb in my ass at class level 60 running back and forth for QMs for months on end. I suffered for my decision too. With every multiclass and neglected "quest plan" I was able to kill less and less things without assistance. Granted, I don't have skills (bash) and spells (poison, plague, curse) which the game mechanics seem too overly based around, but had I trained those defensive/offensive skills in first/second class like all the other class campers I'd have long mastered them by now and would probably have half the problems I'm having with these skills sitting at 70-80%. And no, running around endlessly slaying things to "bot" these skills up is not my idea of fun. I'd rather do runs and/or kill hunters when I log on - but it's a vicious circle. I can't do anything alone because I didn't quest enough - but I quested too much to even want to quest any more.

And then there was Varys. Perfect level 60 was able to kill anything really easily (300 quests). Insanely good 120 now with priest healing added to cavalier power (reached 600 quests). Then there was 180... (reached 700 quests and realised this was taking way too long - months and months because everything costs 4+ to train and the quest rewards are 3-4). Got bored, multiclassed. So basically I'm a 120 cav/priest with some extra hit points because I didn't do 300 quests at 180 and I'm certainly not going to do 6-700 now at 230 just to compensate.



#41 Vintara

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 05:00 AM

(From Cyrell):

(From Vintara):
Seriously though, how can you possibly believe that first or second classers deserve to get the same rewards as heros and archons for a fraction of the effort?



I don't think anyone's saying that.


If you don't agree to lowering first and second class rewards, that's pretty much what you're saying. Unless you're asking for higher level quest rewards to be increased. Of course that's a completely different topic, but I'm not sure that quests offering more than 10 practices are sensible. At least not without a huge amount of effort.

I didn't read the rest of your rant because it was probably irrelevant.

#42 Cyrell

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 06:02 AM

(From Vintara):
I didn't read the rest of your rant because it was probably irrelevant.



Thanks, buddy. I might have to start reconsidering why I read things you say from now on.

#43 Solus

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 06:08 AM

Two is the difference between five (a reasonable high-end reward for a late second classer) and seven (altogether too high a reward for a second classer).


That depends on the quest. The original high reward second classer quests were harder than most archon quests and deserved their 7 practices. Others...they didn't really deserve such high rewards...

I disliked questing, and I still do, so when making Vaine, and past characters, I didn't class camp. I multied because it kept the game somewhat enjoyable. I'm now a Hero, and am NOWHERE near decent standards. I'm 550HP shy of maxing, as well as about 700ST. My stats are horrendous. Let's not even get into my skill and spell lists.


MM's standards are based on being the elite rather than being decent or average.

Being 500 and 700 down without many skills/spells trained is normal.

--

Rewards being too high causes problems. If someone averages more rewards as a lowbie and then they multi only to recieve smaller rewards, they will regret multi-classing.

The time:reward ratio isn't perfected yet...
Some quests do need to have their rewards lowered and adding phases isn't always possible. Of course, there are also some that need their rewards raised.

Alas, people do make quests with the intention of helping their alt grow faster, thus they make them overly rewarding on purpose. *Recalls the quest that gave 10 practices for walking 2 w, 5 s, 6w, 13n, and all west.*

#44 Cyrell

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 06:15 AM

(From Solus):
MM's standards are based on being the elite rather than being decent or average.



What exactly do you mean by "elite"?

(From Solus):
Being 500 and 700 down without many skills/spells trained is normal.



How is it normal to go through 4 classes of minimal questing (since according to Duende they're not necessary) and getting 50 or so marks by looking at KoC and then finding out you suck and can't kill anything? I call this abnormal. Why do you think so many people never make it to Hero and quit when they realise the grinding they have to do?

#45 Vintara

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 08:17 AM

Posted Image

#46 Minotorious

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 09:47 AM

(From Vintara):
Posted Image


best image ever.

#47 Dezmar

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 07:00 PM

wouldn't the easiest way to cut down camping is to lower the quest limit ... aka 100 quests first class, 500 quests second, 1000 quests third, 3000 quests hero, no limit archon ... obviously this is a little extreme of an example. maybe 500 1000 2000 3500. or something. i made an alt to go back and be a quest whore first and second class for the simple reason that it was easier. i didnt quest dezmar enough, and in order to do that it would take more time than it would to just go back and start at the beginning the "right" way. was it really the "right" way. idk. i'm just trying to give myself a chance in this super-competitive atmosphere. and don't get me wrong. i love it. the competitive atmosphere and the "ocd" you guys are looking down on make the players that truly love the game try all the harder.

suggestion:

if you want to stop camping, simply lower the quest limit.

#48 Dezmar

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 07:01 PM

looking back on that, some of the grammar in that is horrible.. apologies

#49 Solus

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 07:44 PM

What exactly do you mean by "elite"?


They want to be as strong as the PKers and such they encounter. They want to have everything they use at 75%+. They want maxed vitals and stats.

They think questing will make them elite.
They don't realize PKers spent a long time dying over and over, learning and experiencing various situations.
...Something they can't gain by questing, but they don't realize it and continue to quest...

Likewise, people consider less than maxxed stats bad. Its normal.
In addition, people waste practices training everything to 75%+, even if the skill works fine at 30%. Then they whine they don't recieve enough practices because they don't spend practices wisely.

How is it normal to go through 4 classes of minimal questing (since according to Duende they're not necessary) and getting 50 or so marks by looking at KoC and then finding out you suck and can't kill anything? I call this abnormal. Why do you think so many people never make it to Hero and quit when they realise the grinding they have to do?


For just about any mob I fight, I only use some of the most basic of spells and skills.
Second Attack
Third Attack
Enhanced Damage
Weapon
Dodge
Cure Light
Refresh
Bash
Lightning Bolt

If I am easily killing mobs as strong as hunters with only these skills/spells, I wonder how someone can have so much trouble.

:rpotion: Did you spend your practices properly? (You generally have to be an experienced alt to know what to train.)
:gpotion: Do you have the right key skills and spells?
:ypotion: Is it you that lacks skill rather than your character? (I mean no offense in saying this, but this is something that needs to be considered.)
:bpotion: How good is your gear?

if you want to stop camping, simply lower the quest limit.


Some people enjoy questing. Not everyone enjoys the higher levels. Removing someone's ability to have fun isn't the answer, IMO.

#50 Vaine

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 11:55 PM

Seriously though, how can you possibly believe that first or second classers deserve to get the same rewards as heros and archons for a fraction of the effort?



That's your whole god damn problem. The high end quests are too under-rewarding. Some of my skills take 5-7pp per %. You're telling me that having to do one quest at 240, which will probably take me quite a bit of time because I'm unfamiliar with things my level, simply to raise a skill by 1% is fine? Which would mean that in order to do the 20+ spells, and 10+ skills that I want to do. it's going to take me about five hundred, or more quests. That's not including doing my stats, which are mostly all about 4 or 5 points away from being maxed without gear. On top of that, let's throw in the 550HP and 700ST that I need to train. You honestly believe that getting 7PP quests at 240 is fine if the first class rewards are lowered? Step away from the glue.

High first class rewards enable people to gain PP a lot faster at 60, or 120 than they do at 180 or 240. I'd rather be able to bank a bunch of practices from high rewarding quests at 60 and 120 to spend in the future on ridiculously high practice costs, that would otherwise take me months upon months to accumulate if I quested at 240 for those same rewards.

I can not grasp the concept of lowering high-end first class quests. It makes absoloutely zero sense, and will do nothing but cripple this game, and quest system even more than it already is.