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OS Relic Discussion


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#26 Chaosfire

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 03:20 PM

That last post was in regard to Vassago.

#27 Csia

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 03:23 PM

Anyone with determination could have gone Vandyne when magnetic field was grossly overpowered. We want to foster diversity, not stamp it out. Didn't you complain about magnetic field?

#28 Chaosfire

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 03:24 PM

(From Duende):

(From Chaosfire):
I don't mind seeing the lasers/razerwire/fencing removed, I do mind if I am not properly compensated for it, and simply giving the new versions of it is neither fair nor reasonable to the people who put time and money into obtaining them.



(From Chaosfire):
Chaosfire@#troll: set me to level 165, give me 50m, flexing armbands, and a full set of raymatus arts. Problem solved



when your solution to being reimbursed for extremely unbalanced retardation is extremely unbalanced retardation, you get nothing. reasonable requests may be entertained; selfish idiocy will be rejected.



That would barely make a dent in what I've ultimately lost, and nothing would be given that is OS. I would not be nearly as powerful as I currently am. I thought that suggestion is much more reasonable than gold, as it wouldn't destroy the game's economy, and it wouldnt affect anyone but myself.

#29 Csia

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 03:28 PM

Honestly Chaosfire just reminds me of a drunk dude on the phone with a sober ex. He says dumb things, she calls him on them, and he just responds with more, worse dumb things to try to dig himself out of a hole he doesn't even know hes in.

Are you serious? You think that compensation is reasonable? I guess you fall on the "selfish and greedy" side of my dichotomy. Shocking.

#30 Valiance

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 03:34 PM

'I'm overpowered with my overpowered gear. Compensate me for my overpowered gear by making me overpowered'


:eh:

#31 Chaosfire

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 03:40 PM

Powerful in an achievable manner vs powerful in an unachievable OS manner.

#32 Duende

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 03:42 PM

Thread's over, Valiance wins.

#33 Knightotri

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 05:02 PM

I'm just curious as to why a bunch of +alignment and +age relics were listed in a thread discussing the overpowered old relic combinations. I don't really see how +alignment and +age is really going to overpower anyone. Or as Vassago says, allow people to accumulate a lot of wealth a lot easier.

Obviously different story for the other +svs relics, etc.

#34 Duende

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 05:28 PM

There are many, many more age and align-restricted pieces of eq now than when you were last active. it allows things to be implicitly mutually exclusive; those items bypass that.

#35 Darkemoon

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 06:18 PM

Chaosfire enters the Stock Market Kiosk.

Chaosfire looks at the Terminal.

Chaosfire exclaims, "I've invested so much money!  And lost it all I have!"

Chaosfire exclaims, "I demand a return on my investment!!!"


The deal is, when you invest money in an item, you change the currency for an alternate currency. This is how any currency exchange, and stock exchange works. Ingame items fluctuate in value, thus are, for all intents and purposes, stocks.

The only currency value you can count on remaining a constant, is GOLD. Once you spend money on stocks, you cant simply demand the previous value of the stocks after the market has crashed - you are now stuck with current value stocks, and there is NOTHING you can do about it. You can rant and rave about how much they WERE worth, but many a man has lost everything trading stocks.

I have a bit of advice for future gameplay: NEVER invest more than you are willing to lose. It does bring a sarcastic tear to my eye to see that you donated all of your gold to other players to buy ridiculously overpowered items, but in the end, the items were balanced, and with very good reason.

Now there was no contract, binding or otherwise that implied that if you went and spent every last coin of your gold stupidly on relics, that you would be reimbursed. I think it is childish, and silly to complain that you've spent the last FIVE years encased in overpowered relics, and then cry when they are finally being balanced.

#36 Vanea

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 09:25 PM

I agree with the change. This levels the playing field more, making it easier for newer players to catch up.

My only issues are with the implementation of the change. First, that all OS gear will be changed since this seems to be done manually, and there is room for human error.

Second, that some compensation is given. I agree with Vassago there was some idea that OS relics were going to be changed (i.e. crazily multiplied dwarf fleshes, azathoth relics). They were terribly unbalanced and it was highly conceivable that they would be changed some day.

However, I had the impression and as did several others that items like funeral roses, stone of the demigods, shard of vandyne etc were NS. An impression that these relics were implemented after the balancing process, and deemed balanced. On that basis, I chose to invest some money into these relics.

As a form of a goodwill, I propose that some compensation is given for such a change. I can't think of a suitable compensation. But it could possibly involve, say, 2m worth of neverwhen vouchers per relic changed. Or something. It's not too overpowered, since daily rewards do occasionally give out 1m vouchers.

#37 Krim

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 09:27 PM

The relic system from its implementation has been absurd. It sounded like a good idea on paper, since a lot of other games do have similar systems, but was very poorly thought out and implemented.

Best option would be to remove relics all together. Also all OS items should be removed. This was brought up on a thread a few years ago and received support from majority of the player base (minus Sabon and lvl 120s with os brooms) and then never happened after people sold off all their OS items for dirt cheap.

#38 Chromatus

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 11:15 PM

Chaosfire wants compensation for the time, money and effort he
invested in collecting all the relics. Did he do anything to obtain them that anyone complaining on this post couldn't do? Anyone here with a complaint, had they got off their $%& could have done the same. If this has been such a problem for so long, why were relics continued to be produced and put out there for others to obtain? I've spent money collecting relics, not to the extent Chaos has, but It takes a lot of time to collect the relics to make a Funeral Rose. Why not make the effort worth it? As long as its available to everyone, why is that such a problem? The only thing unfair about it is that it requires more work than most people are willing to put into it, so they'd rather complain about it than go out and make it themselves. Compensation is possible, just like when ST rings became OP because you could wear two of them and they were turned in for QP. There's many forms of compensation, including RU/QP/Gold/AP and any number of things that are readily available to everyone that won't adversely affect the game.

#39 Neostar

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 11:58 PM

I think we're all quite aware of what he wants without you downgrading yourself acting like a fanboy. You're telling me we can go right now and buy those exact relics off someone? No, we can't. And no future materiamagica player will be able to either. We can't go run or make a 14 svs 1 slot relic. You act like you can't still go make a funeral rose. And after this change when funeral roses are still the best then you still have the best relic.

So instead of investing in OP o/s relics that did over 2x what any currently available relic could do, maybe they should thought to the future. Or at least bound the relics and used them for as long as they could.

If they're smart enough to amass that much wealth then IMO they should be smart enough to have seen this change coming, or at least understand why it's happening.

#40 Kritos

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 12:28 AM

Just out of mild curiosity, what spurred you guys to actually do something about this? I don't want to come off as an ass, but I emailed in 2007 about that titanskull shield that was in the OP and pretty much got told that the item didn't exist because I couldn't prove it (despite telling you exactly who had it). Then when I brought up an exact item, the response was "why is this imbalanced?" :?

Item 'an Uzbaki cloak' is type armor, alignment -400, made of silk,
has keywords 'uzbaki cloak dark armor', equipped about the body.
This item weighs 0 stones and 23 pebbles, and is valued at 55,100 gp.
This level 241 item has the attributes: identified no-auction insulated no-dispel unique
An Uzbaki cloak is in excellent condition.
Armor resistance is 25 pierce, 24 bash, 25 slash, and 25 exotic.
This item has 1 empty Relic binding.
Relic(s) bound to this item: a magical coin
Affects ar by 1.
Affects saving-spell by 3.
Affects saving-breath by 4.
Affects sanity by -3.
Affects accuracy by 20.
*Your class must be equal to psionic to use this item.
*Your sanity must be greater than or equal to 21 to use this item.
*This item may be repaired 9 times.



It's cool that you guys are actually doing something about it, it would be nice if it didn't take 2+ years to catch game breaking stuff like this when players tell you about it.

#41 Warrick

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 04:09 PM

(From Chaosfire):
The demigods were not OS, anyone with the determination to make one of those bracelets could have, and quite frankly, that 24 damage pales in comparison to your ability to reduce my damage output to a single attack per round, that 24 damage quickly becomes a joke.



Is this why you were trying to buy two bracelets, each with +15% to 3rd attack on pktalk today?

Shouldn't you abstain from wearing those bracelets since it will, in combination with slow, give you the ability to reduce damage output to a single attack per round?

Saying a +24 damage item isn't overpowered through use of an example which you yourself are trying to exploit is a poor way to get your point across.

#42 Krim

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 04:55 PM

Remove all relics and all os gear. Its the only solution.

#43 Lemming

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:11 AM

I'm just curious, I noticed my 1 slot demigod was changed to 2 slots. Was this change retroed for everyone? I pulled this demigod literally 5 months ago, were we that far behind in knowing the system wasn't working propertly?

#44 Klaus

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 02:50 PM

Is it just me, or does this thread remind me of those little gun sound machines we used to play with as a kid on the grenade mode?



Meeeeeeaaaarrrrrrrrrrrr pshshshsshshshshshshshshs.

#45 Blarfy

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 03:52 PM

relics diffinatly should be completely removed from the game. from the second they were added its cause nothing but unbalence and an all time high for hoarders. also if OS items to get removed id lose a few thing myself but it does seem like the right thing todo. just do like the relic and replace the item with new stat. this will affect all even me but its the way the cookie crumbles

#46 Floyd

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 10:18 AM

Its about time this happened... i remember buying relics on auction to give them away/destroy them. I never supported relics. Glad to see this one go to the wayside.

I remember when clan 2 had a titanskull floating around with 20+ svs. I spent days complaining how pre-racial savings shield i could force half the members of clan2 to flee in 1v1 pk. After changing one slot of eq, i couldnt last more than 30 rounds due to fighting someone that went from 40 to 60svs. i got the generic 'its so rare it hardly affects the game' response. yet here years later...

I think all but a few o/s items should be removed. the nodecay weapons - decaras, evesong, hellstorms, yourban souls etc etc should probably be left alone. the brooms and bags arent exactly affecting the playerbase. These are expensive alternates to the much more easily obtained n/s versions. they are in no way worth owning more than bragging rights let alone overpowering.

the only things needing retro work would be like, overpowered relic equipment. How many drows fear a holy-wrath weapon in this day? Almost every race has relatively easy access to removing their vuln.

Relics did look good on paper, but the end result was a trashy stepping stone to non class specific spells, religion and more properly scripted/restricted eq.

I am liking the turn of the game. its about time that endgame stackup was different than cookie cutting it with a generic eq build. I would much enjoy seeing same path/races having different sets of gear/skill&spells set than stacking a bunch of overpriced relics to get 100ar/50sv throw.

I very much like the comparison of the relic market to the stock market. XD even moreso the downhill ride it went on. WHEEE

#47 Vassago

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 10:35 AM

Kritos: If you're asking us to remember a two year old conversation, you need to provide documentation.

#48 Dasis

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 12:17 PM

I'm all for changing relics like this. Like most people, I've thought that they were extremely unbalanced from the beginning. The only issue I have with this change is the length of the expiration timer. 180 days, as it starts at now, is plenty of time, but, 7 days, as was announced, is very little time for many relics that are used to create items like demigod stones and funeral roses. I would think that a 30 day expiration would be much more reasonable considering that the 7 day would still create a huge imbalance of power since new players would have to collect all of the relics needed to make that powerful relic.

#49 Vanea

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 08:52 PM

Even if there was no such conversation, I think it could be implied by conduct that newer relics such as demigods were endorsed. It was implied in two ways. First, omission to make any changes for up to 3-4 years? Second, and more importantly, these relics were specifically put up on auction by immortals.

#50 Chaosfire

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 01:02 AM

(From Vanea):
Even if there was no such conversation, I think it could be implied by conduct that newer relics such as demigods were endorsed. It was implied in two ways. First, omission to make any changes for up to 3-4 years? Second, and more importantly, these relics were specifically put up on auction by immortals.



No kidding. This is one of the biggest and most infuriating issues I have with the relic change.

It's particularly annoying when you consider how hard it was to actually acquire demigods/roses originally. Before the implementation dusty relics, which were allowed to give class 3 relics, and the auctioning of (roses/demigods/etc) by immortals, ultimately passing them around like candy, they self-regulated themselves. Creating them required an absurd amount of time and effort, making them extremely difficult to amass. The less powerful relics were obviously more readily available, jawbones for example, give +5 damage for 1 slot, yielding an advantage of +3 damage, +40hp to someone who spent the time to create a demigod stone, which is balanced.

I think a possible, more fair, solution could be implemented as follows:

:flame: Please actually consider what this would accomplish before you shoot it down out of habit. The problem has accrued over the course of 6 years. The solution doesn't need to be rushed and overly-simplistic. This solution removes all OS relics from the game without screwing their owners. It allows new players and old to acquire powerful, balanced, and equally accessible relics with an emphasis on work. It does not give anyone an undeserved advantage.
:flame: Suggestions are welcome, a perfect system can't be developed in a single sitting.

*Remove all relics from the game, absolutely all of them, bound or unbound EXCEPT palpitating relics.

*Remove the ability to get class 3 relics from dusty relics, or heavily reduce the chance(at the very least remove the chance for dusty relics to produce the best possible relics), make class 1 relics likely, class 2 less common, and class 3 rare.

*Add recipes for some of the class 3 relics of which no recipe yet exists, and perhaps add lower-level recipes to make the pieces used for high-level recipes. An arbitrary example would be, 2 azmette's hair to make Saresyn's hair, or a shard of tristan's mace + a bobble from the court jester's cap to create a link from the chain of Lord Agrippa's pendant.

*Return the high-end relics to their 1-slot forms (roses/demigods/index fingers/vandyne shards/etc). If nerfing is absolutely unavoidable, slightly reduce stats. Increasing slots is much more problematic, especially a blanket addition of 1 slots with no stat change.

*Remove the exceptions from the combination rules, they simply are not overpowered with the increase in slots that now occurs. Reduce jawbones to +4 to prevent the too-easy +15 damage in 2 slots.

*Distribute the new, less-powerful, dusty relics to players according to a weighted number of relics they previously had, weighting some of the more powerful relics as many relics(OS relics could be weighted on a case-by-case basis), while weighting some of the more useless ones, +1 personality for example, as a portion of a relic.

*Make dusty relics more accessible: add multiple new ways to acquire them and perhaps add a 'chipped dusty relic' that requires scattered fragments to repair it yielding a dusty relic.

Obviously the timers would need to be reconsidered if the new relics were bind-on-take, as binding would make creating combination relics more difficult.

Forging should also be reconsidered. OS relics would no longer exist so forges restoring the relic stats would no longer cause problems aside from code difficulties in implementation.