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Sums up why we have been loosing players nicely.


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#1 Rathas

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:40 PM

With a faltering player base (given a bit of a boost with the amazing SD/Aura change which brought me out of hibernation), we need to do everything in our power to maintain and promote Archoning, rather than create further distress. The ethos displayed by many people in this game is disappointing and altogether negative, as is demonstrated in this log. The creation of more difficult gameplay in conjunction with changes like the dust emoting counterspell from hunters and elimination of out-of-combat healing on unformed players (who are not involved in PK) ultimately leads to decreased activity, decreased player morale and an altogether discouraging environment… all of which the game as a whole is experiencing the effects of now.

Just to be clear, I am in support of the vast majority of changes that have been implemented over the years (I support the AR change for example) and I generally emphasize with the complexities of management and the inane, often petty problems that face our Immortal staff on a daily basis. But we desperately need to be moving in the OPPOSITE direction to create a more positive, encouraging culture if this game has any hope of survival. And I hope it does.



I agree with this post.

First off let me say that I appreciate the work the the Immortals do for the game. They have created some amazing puzzles, areas, and mobs over the years to fight and explore and solve.

While changes are good and in someways I can understand some of the changes (The AR Change for example) some of those changes could have been done better and others are just wrong.

I was on pktalk and asked about the no healing non-form members in combat. I was told it was to close some combat loopholes. Well my question is what combat loopholes. There are bosses and other mobs in this game that are designed around one person doing it while other players heal the player doing the boss or mob. For example the Blarg. While some players will not have an issue soloing said mob due to there class path and race. Others will never get it done due to a low damage class path. You have never been able to heal a player that is not in your form if said player is fighting another player in PK. So I fail to see how there is any combat loophole here.

The other thing I am noticing with the change log and just other areas. PK seems to be ruling the day. Good luck getting to 100 AR as a casual player without joining a PK clan or flagging Duelist. If you are totally against pk (Clan 13 for instance) then well this game is no longer for you.

You are taking away our ability to see somebody coming to PK us via the addition of druid spells and the change to shift in the FP. There by making it to where those would be willing to try runs in those CPK areas more hesitant to do so. Making it easier to PK new players and grief them to the point where they leave the game, ect.

Don't get me wrong, PK is a part of the game and in some cases fun. However taking away ability to flee, (massive lag, the strike that kills you if you move) or avoid it all together has gone a long ways to drive players away from this game and keep them away.

The other changes, such as dust emoting counter spelling, defenses, and healing scripts on mobs. These changes serve not to make an encounter difficult but rather frustrating. You frustrate the players enough they leave.

Once again I love this game and will always play it from time to time. I love trying to solve some of the puzzles out there that due have clues. I love trying to figure out runs that have been put in. I am just tired of the changes that seem specifically designed to frustrate the player base or drive players into a set play style. Its causing the entire game to suffer.

#2 Keegan

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:12 PM

Nothing will EVAR compare to moongate.

#3 Floyd

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:44 PM

The heal change is to force players to actually solo bosses for bloodlines. Probably helps make the rarity of some gear go up as well.

Is a slight pain.

Like always the vision of few is lost before many. Sometimes player input just is not needed.

I agree whole heartedly with these other players in various threads mentioned return on investment of hours played. Things have been increased in difficulty indirectly. Just how it happens.

The best is chasing a boss for hours to have it teleport away mid combat.

The fire wyrm is going rampant. I wonder if any bottled imps have been visiting the domain lately?

#4 Scrooge

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:21 AM

I don't like the lack of precision in the last password changed dialogue. Some other changes were okay though. Everyone has opinions.

#5 Sevaum

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:11 AM

Hate to break it to you, but Blarg is one of the easier solo bosses. Solo bosses are supposed to be challenging. I can understand in some cases during a run when a boss or npc unforms everyone and one or two people are stuck, but it makes bosses that was meant to be solo'd to actually be solo'd.

In the instance of hitting 100 AR. It's pretty easy to hit 100 ar with all the +ar gear out there. While I don't agree with nerfing a lot of the + ar gear out there, such as a boe, there still is enough in different wear locations to hit 100.

#6 Floyd

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:22 AM

Yes-there is enough. Viable slots when choosing AR or saves for some races means either 90ar and 30saves or the 100ar and 5saves.

As much as some of the players want to swear saves do nothing, there is a big difference in those gaps.

Sure someone will post one or two monstrously expensive sets that achieve both. What ever

The AR tweaks were rough. The worst is when an item in between reboots randomly gets changed with no notification anywhere.

Comes out of a trunk, "oh... when did that change?". My advice get the life spanned gear. Before it is expired something new and better will be out. Apparently items that are not timered need tweaks. Frequently.

Needs to be more class diverse armor. Over a wider range of slots than ring, light, shield, weapon, off hand.

Helm, waist, cloak slots?

The game is trending into an age group with a life. No longer can majority of the players spend six hours a sitting with a large form slaying for a chance of loot. It is being reflected all over the forum lately too.

Granted very powerful items should be rare. No doubts there. More 'savable' content would be enjoyable. Perhaps instead of life spanned keys, more like tavern of boars. With a limit of times a player may participate both in total and frequency.

#7 Rajani

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:20 PM

I foresee this game going on for a while, it will lose alot of the players who like to do runs, and play casually. As the game is growing more and more towards PK and less and less towards the runs/miniquests/etc that casual players and others that don't pk enjoy.

Pk-only gear is just an example of where the pkers get rewarded for pking, and the nonpkers have to struggle to find suitable gear that is 1/3 as good.

I have enjoyed playing this game for roughly 12 years. I am slowly growing to enjoy it less and less due to all of these pk geared changes. Granted there have been some changes that werent bad, and others that just took some getting used to. But when the majority are geared towards pk or elite players where the casual players have a low chance of being able to do any of it. That is where frustration and loss of enjoyment really kicks in.

#8 Rathas

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:42 PM

Hate to break it to you, but Blarg is one of the easier solo bosses. Solo bosses are supposed to be challenging. I can understand in some cases during a run when a boss or npc unforms everyone and one or two people are stuck, but it makes bosses that was meant to be solo'd to actually be solo'd.

In the instance of hitting 100 AR. It's pretty easy to hit 100 ar with all the +ar gear out there. While I don't agree with nerfing a lot of the + ar gear out there, such as a boe, there still is enough in different wear locations to hit 100.



Bosses that are meant to be soloed should be in private rooms then.

It would have been better and actually make a lot more sense to force players to solo bosses that are meant to be soloed rather then forcing players to form up to heal each other in every situation. There are plenty of bosses that can unform the formation and now the tank is screwed and is going to die as no one can heal him. He cant calmed thanks to silence and the boss is no flee either due to it being a no flee boss, or web.

The AR thing, I tried for over a year to get to 100 ar, using gear and equipment that I could actually run solo or buy. Only way I have come close to it is by flagging duelist. Mind you I may not like pk but pking is the only way to get better at it the ar was just a bonus : ). In order to be able to defend my self in pk with all the changes specifically designed to prevent me from avoiding getting pked then I need to get better at it. Unfortunately there are a lot of players that do not share my mentality.

Now the AR change is not something I have an issue with. I understand the reason behind it and frankly agree with it. Could getting there be a tad easier for a retuning player yes, odds are a returning player has no idea where to go get the +ar gear. But in my mind is just a minor annoyance that frankly I can live with.

While yes some changes the IMM's make they are not going to ask the player base and that's ok. They need to keep in mind that the players are what drive the game and catering only to a select group of players hurts not only the players they are catering to but the game as a whole.

The fact remains that when said changes frustrate players and are driving players away from the game then said change needs to be looked at and revamped to where it is a nice balance of getting done what needs to be done (aka making solo bosses be done solo) while not frustrating players to the point where they leave the game.

#9 Ithilwen

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:14 PM

On the topic of driving players away from the game, whether they've been driven away by in-game things or for circumstantial reasons out of their control, I can't remember the last time we've been this stagnant.

I wanted to share what I saw when I logged on this morning.

Spoiler


That's 60 characters online, understandable for a morning when a lot of our players stem from the United States and, for our players who hail from Europe, it's the workday, and even further to the east in Australia/New Zealand, it's bed time. OK. I understand that.

But let's look again...

Spoiler


47 of the 60 characters logged in were idling. That's over 78% (over three-fourths) of the playerbase not playing. When you consider how many of those characters are not actually played and how many belong to the same character, you can subtract that total of 60 even further. With just what I know, from the original list, I spotted 6 characters that are used as bots. At a second glance, I took out out the known alts (to me) of a few people and left the main characters, leaving 7 extra characters idling that shouldn't have been totaled when we're looking at the playerbase. You subtract 11 from 60, leaving you with 49.

This morning, there were arguably 49 different players connected, only a few of which may have been actually playing.

I don't bring this up to name and shame and nor do I bring it up because I want to discredit all the work that some of the Immortals have been putting in to make the game better lately. However, the reason for bringing this to the attention of the general public is because I wanted to stress listening to the players, especially when they take the time to offer valid opinions and concerns. For those who no longer play because of game-related things, chances are, they might have offered some sort of solution or at least a compromise that might have kept some people around a little longer. Changes need to stop being made that anger people to the point that they stop playing, particularly when we have only a handful of active players left.

Posted Image

MISTRESS OF SYMPHONIES • MOON MAIDEN • OWNER OF CLAN DIVERSITY


Model: Valentina Kallias, Artwork: Ithilwen

#10 Floyd

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:12 PM

Well I agree with some of the sentiments here.

Mostly issues with the groups selected for catering.

the mention about toggling duelist for ar was a good choice. Reflects the standings of the game.

Obtaining 100ar would not have been so hard if many of the ar granting items would have not been tweaked for lower +armor.

However I cannot be detracted from the fact that this still pales. The armor change really was the tip of the iceberg for most of the players.

Compounding issues both global and personal, lack of development for specific paths.

Overbuilt weapon and armor slots leaving others to lack in comparison.

The split between duelist and non-duelist gear was... intruiging. The best ones were the nemesis alliance war items. The worst was the jhepps. I personally feel it was a dirty, easy way to milk more RU out of the system. Why work hard for this item when for a few RU and a quest every day you can have the same thing.

it is a great way to get players involved with PK. For sure-make them all buy the flag for some AR they need to do most endgame things.

I like to see more players on my level of the game available for pk. Sure. Sadly it seems most of the players just got mowed over by the super geared trolls for more pk rank. Since being on death's top ten is what shows your pk skill.

As biased as it may be some classes and races just got more kickbacks and incentives. No matter what is done now it is going to be an uphill battle to provide the other spectrum a balanced alternative without large amounts of sobbing.

Of course seeing as DoA was "changed" recently making the fire wyrm unbeatable...

The worst part about this game is the small community and the trolling therein.

I have played for many years. Enjoyed the game for over a decade with various alias.

The issues vary player from player why they leave.

I agree with ithilwen on the views of idling and alts. Shame.

The lack of activity makes it difficult to complete larger runs. The game is quickly becoming a "run it for the BK" then done. Flag duelist and grab all the armor you need. Pick a race with saves. Pick malkyrie or barbarian.

Is stagnant. Even with Toothgnasher picking a new race every month...

#11 Toothgnasher

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:56 PM

hmm

#12 Vaticus

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:23 AM

Duende's typical crappy attitude toward (most) players is another reason some people lose interest. Trying to do a run only to find out that it's bugged is loads of fun, especially when he either completely ignores you or will only respond to certain players via tells or pray. Oh, your run failed because it's bugged? Try again some other time when I'm around to debug (and actually in the mood to be helpful), unless you're one of my pet players in which case I'll just load the arts for you and your form, or give you a warp stone to the area. The amount of blatant favoritism is discouraging to say the least.

Oh yeah, and the evolving egg items have been largely useless with few exceptions.

#13 Scrooge

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:46 PM

Maybe you should start paying him.

#14 Dilz

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:53 PM

Our ranking on topmudsites has slipped out of the top 20 and off the first page. I'm sure that's doing wonders for attracting new players as well.

You can vote every 12 real life hours, go do it.

#15 Floyd

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:23 PM

Maybe you should start paying him.



#16 Thaen

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:03 PM

People work and don't have time to drop everything to fix something that will require looking into code? How dare they.

The obvious solution is to do things when the only imm that cares enough to fix them is around and not busy.

#17 Floyd

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:24 PM

Perhaps you meant the only immortal allowed to do those things? I have noticed more than one immortal being actively seen and assisting. However most times I am told "you have to ask duende about that, I cannot help. Sorry"

#18 Floyd

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:31 PM

I think the eggs have been interesting. Some of the items have been a bit... discouraging.

Others have been nice. Liked the chest plate. Shield was cool too. Best was artificing deliveries.

Quitting happens. I guess the best thing to do is realise nothing is forever...

One day this entire realm will be neverwhen

#19 Scrooge

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 01:58 AM

Are they not allowed or do they just not understand it?

#20 Vaticus

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:31 PM

Maybe you should start paying him.



That's tricky though. What's the price tag on Duende not being condescending, rude, and insulting? I don't think anyone would debate that he's good at what he does, and that he has contributed immeasurably to the game. It's a blemish on the game's reputation to have someone whose temperament runs so hot and cold being the face of the staff.

Are donations not a form of gratuity? Is it our fault if funds aren't allocated from that to compensate him for his efforts?

The admin want more activity and with that comes more donations. It would be nice if it worked in reverse but I'm afraid that's not the reality in which we live. Maybe I'm just somewhere out in left field with my logic but wouldn't you want to be friendly toward your potential donors rather than spiteful or resentful? I personally don't expect immediate gratification in response to my issues in the game, but I don't appreciate being told to rearrange my sleep/work/living habits to accommodate Duende's League of Legends/work schedule, or to somehow guess accurately when he's active and actually willing to help debug something. Or always bring someone along who can actually get a positive response out of him.

#21 Floyd

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 01:27 PM

I was a reoccurring contributor. I am lucky to even get a one word response. Feel sorry for all you players who haven't dropped as much change as I have. Must not even get response.

#22 Scrooge

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 03:29 PM

The simple facts of the matter are you don't pay for this game and no one pays Duende. You say admin desires more donations and thus more active players but you are just projecting. I have not seen them say this anywhere.

Get pragmatic and deal with the fact that if you want great customer service you'll have to become a customer somewhere.

#23 Rajani

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 03:39 PM

The simple facts of the matter are you don't pay for this game and no one pays Duende. You say admin desires more donations and thus more active players but you are just projecting. I have not seen them say this anywhere.

Get pragmatic and deal with the fact that if you want great customer service you'll have to become a customer somewhere.



Gotta become a customer somewhere? Alot of people have left this game to become customers elsewhere. Not mentioning names of where they have gone. The thing is, why code the game in a way that runs off the player-base? Code in ways that you the coder like, but majority of the players dislike? There wouldnt be a game without the player-base, so in a way we are customers. Donations help pay for the servers. But this isnt about donations, its about the player base growing smaller and smaller, year by year. I can name one or two people who got bored of the game and quit, but I can think of several who quit due to game mechanics that the majority of the players dislike, or mechanics that go to the extremes.

#24 Scrooge

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 03:57 PM

You sound like you're not very intuitive, so let me drop some more fact bombs on you.

* Duende's been an active voluntary immortal for longer than anyone else I've ever seen on this game. He has single handedly contributed more to this game than you ever will.

* The year is 2013 and you are talking about a text based MUD. Are there MUDs that aren't experiencing a slow spiral into irrelevance right now?

* If you take a few hundred people and change something they all use, a few of them will not like it. No matter what. Some of them might leave, but I have yet to see a change that disgruntled more than half the playerbase that was not reverted or modified.

* Duende has been more receptive to input and more available than any other immortal in the history of this game. It is because of this that you, and I, and most of the players who can avoid sinking into entitled dickbaggery have been able to have such a profound influence on the direction of this game and its mechanics over the past 10 years. Maybe you didn't play a decade ago, or maybe you don't remember the state of affairs, but there was very little discussion about upcoming changes, no disclosure of game algorithms, and virtually no recourse for modifying or revoking an unpopular change.

Now you have all of that and you're complaining that you have to wait for some guy with a day job to log on and give it to you? Why would you expect this person to help you when you act like an entitled brat?

This game has so much broken stuff because of all the different areas and mechanics Duende is simultaneously working on in an attempt to please you. This game is the way it is not because of some rampant dictatorship of Duende but because of the combined influence of an entire player base on an immortal that is open to and capable of acting on it. Cry in your rootberries. Reap what you sow. It's all the same oatbag.

#25 Rathas

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:07 PM

Scrooge there are two Mudds that I can think of right now that have over 200 players active, one of those has almost 400 players. Our lack of activity is not due to Mudd's dying as you put it.

Now I agree with you that Duende works his but off for this game and has for a long time. Frankly he has added more and done more for this game then most of the other IMM's combined.

However the issue is not Duende, nor is it simply due to one change its due to to a lot of changes that added together cause players to leave. Its what I call the law of unintended consequences. Here we need to change this to make this work the way its supposed to.

Take the healing change for instance. We change healing so folks are soloing the bloodlines bosses the way they are meant to be done.

The change works but the unintended consequences are bosses that unform the forms now are harder to run or down right impossible. The entire method behind getting some marks for some races or class paths is now impossible meaning they will never get said mark.

Is a change necessary to get folks to solo the bosses for the bloodlines yes it is. We just need the Imm's to think about the other consequences before they make a change and come up with a change that mitigates those consequences rather then exasperates them.

Its never one single change that kills a game, its a series of changes that kills a game. Frankly this game has more viable content in it and more to do in it if we had an active player base then almost any other game out there to include the graphical games like WoW, or EVE. There is no reason why we should not be the number 1 mudd.

The fact that we are not means we are doing something wrong.

The other point I want to make is this, More players means more donations. More players means more targets for the PKers, More players means more runs are getting done and more content getting experienced. More content getting done and experienced means the Imm's might actually enjoy making new areas again as they get to see players doing it. Also more donations means that Vass might actually be able to start paying some of the senior Imms a little.