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Remove Most Cooldowns


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#1 Karragos

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 04:50 PM

I was thinking about this the other day, and I tried to think of it as related to spellcasting, and my conclusion is:

If an ability like Sweep/Bloodthirst/Searing Touch seems too powerful, would it possibly make sense to adjust the cost so that if we spam it we'll run out of juice? Bash has no CD, and if you spam that, you can't attack. If you spam spells, you run out of mana. I wonder about that as I charge, sweep, or do some other abilities.

Thoughts?

#2 Dyalot

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 09:52 PM

If I were in charge, I'd remove all cooldowns in favor of higher costs where appropriate... although some stuff just boggles my mind why it has a cooldown at all. I mean seriously, is 'Phalanx', with its ridiculously short affect time, so dangerously powerful that it needs a cooldown period after 2 casts?

#3 Vassago

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 02:47 AM

The point of cooldowns are to keep the same skills from being used over and over again. There are different ways to do this, such as "diminishing returns" that I would like to add* (basically, the more you cast the spell within a collected duration, the less effective it gets each time). Potions would be nice to have this as well just to cause people to have to think a bit before using three healing potions in a row, for example.

There's some magic systems I've seen that have the magician grow weary over time the closer together they cast any spells. As you collect weariness you might lose the ability to cast certain powerful spells because you no longer have the strength to do so. At least until your weariness fades. In MM it'd be like having an affect that reduced your max spell complexity rating that could accumulate over time.

With a system like that, cooldowns could be removed.

Anyway, these are just some thoughts I had on the subject.

#4 Shinde

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 04:03 AM

I like the former much more than the latter. I do like the idea of giving a reason to not spam the same spell over-and-over, however if you want to cast spells every round, I don't think there should be an overall penalty (as is, physical attacks are too emphasized).

#5 Karragos

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 04:46 AM

I would be against diminishing returns of any sort as well. I kind of look at the Stamina/Mana bars as a sort of diminishing return meter, in that if we spam high cost spells too much, we're going to be waiting for a bit to cast them again.

After I posted my initial post and thought about it but couldn't edit it, what I was trying to say at the time was, it seems like some of the abilities with cooldowns are a little underwhelming. These very well could be completely different at Archon, but it seems as though some of them aren't entirely powerful enough to justify their long CDs, ie Sweep.

Would it be worth thinking about buffing them a bit, even at the expense of a longer cooldown, if it meant that they were true cooldown worthy abilities?

I should probably get to Archon as well so I can actually know how these abilities work in the endgame... I'm just assuming right now that they scale proportionally, and some of them seem underwhelming right now.

Not to bring WoW into a game that outclasses it 100 times over, but some of the mechanics, ie blowing cooldowns are kind of nice. If Sweep and other skills with a cooldown are truly cooldown abilities, maybe it's worth buffing the damage significantly, even at the expense of a longer cooldown?

#6 Gezus

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 04:58 AM

I always thought cooldowns were used to prevent absurdity from going on. Mostly the spaming of the way to powerful religion spells.
I'd rather not with the handcuffs when it comes to spell rotations. All it does is create a "best rotation" and then its pretty much back to square one.

#7 Lynarlan

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 07:15 AM

The problem i have with cool downs in mm is the fact it already takes years to master your skills and spells, years. Now youve gone and tripled what it used to take by adding cool downs on things. and not just 10 seconds on a use, but 300 seconds, 22000 seconds. This seems extremely excessive.

The other problem is cool downs getting activated just for hitting enter. For example, tried to feed, but didnt have the stamina. Doesnt matter, cool down enabled. Tried to cast a spell at a mob, misspelled/typoed mob name, never started to cast the spell. Doesnt matter, cool down enabled. Casted the spell, failed the spell, again, doesnt matter cool down enabled. This is ridiculous. Even the slightest idea that this is thought to be ok seems exceedingly short sighted.

#8 Minotorious

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 07:37 PM

Cooldowns allow for the presence of unspammable significantly powerful skills/spells.

Lay out does a lot of damage, enough that using it repeatedly would be overpowered, however with a cooldown the skill can exist fine.

Without cooldowns, a lot of skills couldn't be any more powerful than being bash clones.

That said, I think the entire betters system could use a new look given the current activity and playerbase size. Skills with longer cooldowns could use modifiers to their uses per better. The anti-bot code could be removed entirely with a playerbase small enough that it's obvious if anyone is botting.

This way betters aren't shaped into mastering things through non-natural gameplay.

As is, playing the game naturally, regardless of your primary gameplay is not an efficient way to get betters.

Unless of course your gameplay goals involve hanging out in vir or PG fleeing from mobs every 5 rounds.

#9 Dupre

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 11:59 PM

Cooldowns really grind my gears, lets get rid of them. Also, pants, don't you hate pants?

#10 Damone

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 12:07 PM

(This was suppose to have a quote from Vassago.. anyway, that's what it is in response to.)

I honestly believe that complicating things will only make them worse. I do not believe that such a system should be pushed as it would completely change the game and not for the better.

To touch on the topic a moment, I'm not a big fan of cool down timers either. However, there are certain instances where they actually should come in play, such as lay out. However, I do think it would be wise to take a second look at the spells/skills that currently have cool down timers and really examine whether or not they truly are needed. If they aren't.. please remove them from which ever spell/skill this determination has been made.

#11 Rascon

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 07:49 PM

the skills that have 2 uses per X seconds are wonky too, for example
Channel faith
*Cool-down: 14 seconds (2 uses triggers)
*3 second cast time

Scenario 1:
cast #1, it lands
cast #2
3 second cast time
it lands
14 second cool-down before next cast

Scenario 2:
cast #1, it lands
wait 10 seconds
cast #2
3 second cast time
it lands
14 second cool-down

In scenario 2 even though its a 14 second cool-down you are effectively made to wait 27 seconds before you're able to cast it after your first cast. If the cool-downs were altered to make a timer for each iteration of its use and drop off after the total cool-down then you could cast this spell 2 times in ANY 14 seconds not just the 14 seconds after the very last cast. In effect you would have 2 maximum timers (since there is a 2 uses limit)running on this spell, and if both timers are active when the user tries to cast the spell again then cool-down is enforced.

#12 Dyalot

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 08:53 PM

Yeah...between what Rascon said and the fact that the cooldown system does not distinguish between a successful cast and a failed cast, it's extremely inconsistent.

If cooldowns aren't going away, at the very least, some consistency and sanity could be instilled in the code -- BEFORE trying anything brand new.