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Racial Considerations - An Open-Forum Discussion


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#1 Perrin

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 06:48 AM

===================================================================
FOREWORD:
*I know the "team" is working on other things.
*I know most people either don't support the idea of another new race, at this time or ever.
*I know this is like the third time I've done something like this, but I'm allowed to post ideas, however far-fetched and implausible.

SO PLEASE DON'T POST ABOUT THOSE THINGS, BECAUSE I GET IT.

I like to post things and get serious responses, because it's fun and I generally enjoy serious opinions and ideas, not because I expect implementation. I don't.

I attribute my last couple threads dying partly from lack of support and partly from invasion and takeover by Floyd and Floyd-haters.

Now my post.
===================================================================

What do people think about races not playable within Alyria, with respect to their fun-value and how they would fit in the world? With attention toward aforementioned fit in the existing world as well as feasibility, of course.

Does anyone have ideas as to what they might like that isn't there already?

Races and accompanying stats, abilities, roleplay aspects such as alignment, appearance, limitations, and anything else, as well as opinions and discussions relating to other peoples' ideas.

I know this community can get pretty trollish and dismissive on occasion, but I'm *hoping* for people to be more-or-less serious and civilized. We'll see.

Again, I don't think anything will come from this but the discussion itself. I just like ideas and want to see what kinds of things people can come up with.

#2 Perrin

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 06:49 AM

I'll go first!

There are 3 "Good" (G) races:
Elf, Sidhe, Halfling

6 "Neutral" (N) races:
Half-elf, Human, Dwarf, Gnome, Minotaur, Ogre

3 "Evil" (E) races:
Drow, Fey, Sahuagin

Two races get a natural AR bonus:
Ogre(N), Dracon(E)

Three races get non-bash hand-to-hand damage:
Fey(E), Dracon(E), Sahuagin(E)

Three races can be described as "monstrous humanoids":
Minotaur(N), Dracon(E), Sahuagin(E)

These races' stats lend them more naturally to melee combat than spellcasting:
Dracon(E), Minotaur(N), Ogre(N), Dwarf(N)

And these to spellcasting over melee:
Elf(G), Sidhe(G), Half-Elf(N), Drow(E)

That's not everything that ought to be considered, but it's a few things I wanted to point out. I understand alignment has little to do with how we play, but it's nevertheless unbalanced.

Last time, I suggested Banshrae, which was an insect-like humanoid. This time, because feedback was so overwhelmingly against that, I present:

The Aldani (aka Yurians)

Here is where I found them/info on them:
http://forgottenreal...com/wiki/Aldani

They're lobster-like, armored, with human legs and faces (aside from eyes on stalks). They're intelligent, civilized, and do partake in combat. As opposed to ocean waters, like sahuagin, Aldani live in rivers.

Alterations for an Alyrian-friendly version of the Aldani could be losing the eye-stalks in favor of human eyes, making them able to breathe air (as was done with sahuagin), and making them positively aligned (their alignment is not specified anywhere I can find). They could potentially fill in all the gaps for good-aligned races stated above.

Admittedly, I did latch onto this idea because I have seen a couple people say something about wanting to play a crustacean race on PKtalk... but nevertheless, it seems neat. There are skills and other racial attributes that could be added to make them more interesting, too, obviously.

Stat Ranges:
2100-2400hp, 1500-1800sp, 1800-2250st
22-23 strength
24-ish vitality
knowledge 19-21
luck 18-20
wisdom 18-20
courage 19-22
agility 17-19
sanity 19-22
personality 17-19

I don't know what skills and abilities they might have. Maybe someone else will have an idea for it.

#3 Reznov

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:37 AM

There are four evil races including Dracon.

Something kinda sad about

the way that things have come to be.

Desensitized to everything.

What became of subtlety?

 

I'll keep digging

Til I feel something


#4 Thaen

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:07 AM

I'd personally say that the current races should be fixed before worrying about new races. I know a lot of your concerns are based around role play/immersion but there isn't really much that the game needs in terms of racial choices.

This is overall why the addition of Sahuagin, at the time, was game breaking and unnecessary. If Duende really wanted an evil Paladin he could have got over his hatred for Solus and made it so all Paladins could benefit from being evil or good.

Human, Elf, Dwarf, Ogre, Fey, Sahuagin, Halfling, Dracon, Drow and Sidhe all feel incredibly lacking. Their inherent strengths aren't generally great in comparison to Minotaur, Half-elf and Gnome, which we have incredibly bulky, very open class choices and incredibly resilient races respectively.

But (kinda) back on topic.

Out of the fantasy races that already exist within the game that could be adapted into a playable race, I'd say that the most desirable would be Orc. An evil human like surface dweller. Dracon fits the role as a general bulky evil race but it's kind of just a boring race to begin with. Drow is more of a midway between bulk and caster and Sahuagin is just stupid.

The one that I'd love to have would obviously be Troll but Ogres kinda fit that role of a hyper bulky neutral race unfortunately.

#5 Harly

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:48 PM

Fix the current races before adding any more, I agree with Thaen. Currently there are a few races which from a pure stats standpoint, are way better than most of the others.

Some races get a ton of bonuses (special skills, extra EQ slots, exclusive EQ) while others get next to nothing, and besides RP standpoints there isn't really any objective reason to take those races.

If you play a low strength/vit race there is quite a bit of gear that you cannot wear due to requirements on the gear, but there isn't much on the flip side (gear that you can only wear if you have high sanity or knowledge etc)

#6 Perrin

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 07:12 PM

Fix the current races before adding any more, I agree with Thaen. Currently there are a few races which from a pure stats standpoint, are way better than most of the others.

--------------------------

If you play a low strength/vit race there is quite a bit of gear that you cannot wear due to requirements on the gear, but there isn't much on the flip side (gear that you can only wear if you have high sanity or knowledge etc)



Point 1:
I agree. :\ I said so at the top of the first post to avoid people posting about that, because it could potentially take over the thread otherwise. This is just for spitting out and trading ideas for the sake of doing so.

Point 2:
And that's also a problem, I feel, for playing the high-aligned races, I feel. They're, all three of them, low str/vit. A problem I ran into playing Perrin is that, for a barbarian, my counterpart axe to the Ultimate Evil one is Ironheart, since, as a half-elf, I'm excluded from being able to use Ultimate Evil. Ironheart requires I stay above 500 align, however, and so I can't use a cadet uniform or belt of the red hand or a number of other items. Not wanting to be a duelist also excludes me from some pretty decent stuff. Luckily, I have 24 str and 21 vit because of my race/class choices and some of those options are open to me, but had I gone one of the others, I would be out of luck for even more gear, as quite a few players obviously are.

That was one other reason I thought a tankier good-aligned race would be a nice addition *someday*. It could both potentially bring in more decent good-aligned req. gear as well as wear some of the other gear good-aligned players find difficult to "fit into" and be a boon in the event that align-based gameplay is ever introduced.

Thaen:
You said troll is probably too much like ogre, so how would you make orc different if you were designing them?

#7 Harly

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 07:54 PM

If there was a new race which was a "good" "tank race" I would make it something like a Goron from Zelda, or Rand from Breath of Fire 2 / Guntz from Shining Force.

Gorons are large round bulky guys, who live in tribes, have beards / pony tails, and are earth based.

Posted Image

Rand from Breath of Fire II and Guntz from Shining Force are large armadillo guys.

[img width="250" height="333"]http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080229031844/bof/images/5/5f/Rand_Marks.jpg[/img]

Posted Image

#8 Thaen

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:20 PM

Honestly? With the current class choices I don't think Orc would be a very viable race. One example is what Fighter classes would they get? Barbarian, probably not Valkyrie or Paladin. Maybe to an extent Cavalier since there are wolf-rider orcs in Wroth.

If it can only go Barbarian then it's pretty much just another Dracon without extremely reduced damage on two hit locations. In other words an unnecessary race.

Also Minotaur can be argued as the positively aligned bulky race. Minotaurs start at 350 alignment and there's pretty much nothing about their race that says they should be limited to one alignment, if anything they would probably favor positive alignment to counter the evil Dracons which they so hate.

#9 Perrin

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:48 PM

Minotaurs might be able to be considered "good" with some adjustments, but they're typically regarded as evil. This from a DnD wiki:

Minotaurs are known to be cannibals, feeding off the flesh of sentient creatures. They love to dwell within maze-like caverns or ruins, where their innate sense of direction prevents them from getting lost. They lure travelers into their maze-like homes, where the minotaurs have the advantage over their unfortunate prey.



#10 Thaen

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:19 PM

You have to also remember that the Sirchade Galaxy isn't really bound within the DnD universe. While the game is roughly based on DnD and Duey had a boner for the monster manual it shouldn't be limited in that way. I don't think there's any cannibalistic cows running around despite DB obviously having mad cow disease.

Dwarf starts at 350 align and is a very bulky race, another argument for the good aligned bulky races.

#11 Dyalot

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 11:47 PM

Hm. How about centaurs?

A mountable PC race could be... interesting... might require some tweaking of the mount / formation code (only allow mounting formation members for ex, but force a mounted player to occupy the same spot in formation as their rider...other in-combat considerations of what would be possible/impossible...)

Or OK, maybe centaurs wouldnt let anyone mount them (or only smaller PC races like halflings, gnomes, and dwarves). But still. Centaurs.

#12 Harly

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 12:44 AM



#13 Voramyd

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 05:51 AM

I agree with thaen's post. Fixing the current race balance would be best. Everyone knows, beyond(in no order) drow, dracon, minotaur, gnome and now (to an extent) sahuagin are all overly built in respects to other races.

Perrin, it brings sadness to my heart when proclaiming this... the game is biased towards evil PC's. Just the way it is. Never has there ever been any wild gear, being extremely powerful that supports being angelic. Nor, will there. That is, unless vassago wraps up all those vandemaar mini quests.

The best bet is to whine, cry, petition, bemoan and otherwise beg the staff to make wisdom, knowledge and sanity much more critical in spellcasting. Good races all trend with high bases in those stats.

Beyond that, it could be nice to see another race but, why bother? Make alignment more useful.

In response to the sahuagin, evil paladin/solus comment; that staff member is gone. Perhaps now something more reasonable could be done? There is only a religious leader whom acts as residing clergyman for said evil paladins...

A bug race would be better than 2.cow race via centaur genitals. Just saying.

#14 Reznov

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 09:47 AM

I think we're sort of ignoring Perrin's first post about this not being a "give us a new race" thread. We're just having a fun little discussion so....

Let's have a little game, "Create your own race" with a few simple rules based on the races already in the game.

1) All attributes combined must equal 173(the average total attributes of all races).
2) No attribute can be higher than 24 or lower than 16.
3) All vitals combined must be 6000.
4) No vital can be higher than 2500 or lower than 1600.



Avians - Bird men in layman's terms.
Racials: Levitation(wings), Sense-hidden(keen eagle eyes)
resistant to: air
vulnerable to: lightning

Attributes:
2000/2000/2000
strength 19
agility 22
courage 19
knowledge 20
vitality 19
sanity 20
wisdom 18
luck 18
personality 18

Racial Skill: Aerial Ambush(Needs a better name)
Sort of a backstab with a long cooldown and maybe gives combat focus or something for a short period. Same rules as backstab, can't be in combat or lower than a certain percent of hp.

Something kinda sad about

the way that things have come to be.

Desensitized to everything.

What became of subtlety?

 

I'll keep digging

Til I feel something


#15 Perrin

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 11:10 AM

GOOD IDEA SIR.

Cuduine - Intelligent, anthropomorphic wolves.
Racials: Sense-life, Enhanced Endurance, Cannot Mount, Selenophilia(described below), Hand to Hand damage is slash.
Resistant to: cold
Immune to: moonlight
vulnerable to: silver

Attributes:
2050/1750/2200
strength 20
agility 21
courage 22
knowledge 18
vitality 22
sanity 16
wisdom 19
luck 19
personality 16

Racial Skills: Bite, Tracking
Howl - Small boost to strength and vitality of player, and small drop in courage and strength to opponent if used in combat. Also a small chance to cause fear.

Selenophilia (from racial affects) - Either affects regen based on lunar phases or stats in some way. Sometimes Cuduine would be really strong, sometimes kind of weak. I was thinking one moon could affect strength/vit/agi or hp/st and one could affect wis/know/san or sp. Like Gain/Loss in a way.

Barbarian )( Ranger )( Druid | Shaman )( Rogue | Knave

#16 Voramyd

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 04:18 PM

Velocitaur
2050hp 1850sp 2100st

Vuln - air
Resistant - charm, illusion.
Immune - none

Racial affects - sensory enhancement, infra vision, +1ar/class

Racial skills - lock pick, disembowel, spit, pierce damage hand-to-hand combat(backstab capable)

Score card:
Str 19, vit 19
Knowl 19, luck 18
Wis 18, coura 20
Agil 20, san 20
Person 18

Align : 350

Classes: cavalier, psionic, monk, witch, shaman, rogue, knave.

Description:

In an effort to hybridise some bloodlines came about the velocitaurs. Apparently, from the slightly haired legs and sinewy muscular tone of this beast it's lineage can be traced to a mixing of llamataur and centaur being crossed and back bred for ideal recessive traits. There, the lines were mixed with large, light flightless birds of prey. Ending result of a large, slightly haired killing machine equipped with razor sharp talons.

The velocitaur has exhibited the moral standings of any sentient race yet trends on a whole to be rather good. While limited in their ability to adapt as other races, they are quite powerful in nature.

As with all of their ancestors, the velocitaur tends to be rather nomadic and spends young life with a tribe. Lending towards their avian ancestry the velocitaur is capable of spitting digested foods at enemies when fighting. Researches have argued the use of emptying one's stomach contents in a fight and the purpose has yet to be determined. Theorists proposed it allowed the velocitaur to transfer any toxins and diseases at the cost of regeneration.

#17 Thaen

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 08:25 PM

Dracon is one of the most unfortunate races to exist. It kinda locks out bird people and lizard men since it rolls both aspects into one.

Dracon seriously has way too many benefits and should be reconsidered as an available race. They have both Tail and Wing as target locations that -severely- reduce damage and allow access to way too many stats/resistances. They have bash and fire resistance, two of the most common damage types in the game. They have racial AR. Their only vuln is Cold which is negated by a shield that also gives them +2 AR.

I know there's "rich history" behind Vir but making Dracon an unplayable race is quite possibly the best step towards diversity while not giving a stupid amount of free buffs to an already good race. It can easily be replaced with Lizardman and have much less for racial bonuses.

But back on topic, those three races don't really break the mold and are unnecessary. Sahuagin broke the mold despite being unnecessary, it had a racial gimmick. The most sp:hp efficient self healing spell in the game as well as a stupid new drowning gimmick.

Kenku are just like Dracons without a tail and some gimmick backstab. Get your head out of pokemon imo, adding vulns to a race is a bad thing.

Velociraptor people, I just don't want to even acknowledge this, Floyd.

And Werewolves, for shame. There's already werewolves in the game as well as methods for becoming a werewolf through scripted items. I'm sure it'd draw in more twilight schmucks being able to go team douchebag#2 instead of opting into leatherbacks for team douchebag#1 but is that really a good thing? You have to stop and consider that quality >>> quantity.

The way of the future is Turtles.

#18 Perrin

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 08:44 PM

There's no werewolf in my thing. :( The moon thing takes from wolves themselves, which are often pictured howling at the moon (though I know that them doing so is a farce). They're born wolf-like, live wolf-like, and die wolf-like.

I think were-anything and vampire are more "conditions" than anything. Any race could become a vampire or a were-animal, so neither makes sense as a race.

#19 Thaen

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 09:57 PM

If you want to get technical. Historically Vampires were called Netherbeasts and they were the offspring of demons raping virgin women.

Germanic berserks were called Were-animals because they would get high on shrooms and wear animal skins on their heads, typically of wolves, boars and bears.

A vampire race would then be a demi-human/demi-demon and were-creatures would just be Germans.

I glanced over the character ideas very briefly, none of them are turtles and that's a problem.

#20 Voramyd

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 12:21 AM

What could turtles do? Are they teenaged, mutants or even ninjas?

Velocitaurs are where it is at.

Though, who is Floyd? Stop eating those "shrooms" and were-beasting your adle brains Thaen.

But seriously, dracon isn't that powerful. While having high ar and two extra slots... the issue perhaps is the overabundance of highly powered equipment(after doing a search, a quest tail slot comes to mind). Either way, sahuagin is more imbalanced than dracon. Yes, tail and wing locations receive less damage. How many players actually aim for those slots? Other than stray hits soaking damage on those locations, it seems merely an argumental standpoint and less of an issue during actual gameplay.

Mayhaps adjusting gnome, minotaur and a few other top end races and placing them in line with the bottom end races would likely stop all this whining about poor, stinky dracon and their super powered barbarian/mage/cleric/rogue path. There are like... less than six total paths dracon can play, right? Sure, a shield or nunchaku may remove their vuln, but no one complains about minotaur removing theirs.

#21 Thaen

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 01:06 AM

That's not how proper balance works. Certain aspects of a game are nerfed if they're game breakingly powerful. Minotaur, Gnome and Half-Elf aren't game breakingly powerful and the other races should be brought in line.

The fact of the matter is that a stray hit to your tail or wing will severely reduce your damage taken. In PvE every mobile seems to combat aim auto after it was adjusted from mobs just targeting your highest AR location.

#22 Gezus

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 02:02 AM

I agree that all races that don't begin with a G are terrible.

a few thoughts on what I just read:

Wisdom and knowledge may serve less important purposes for pvp but saying that sanity is not important is silly and wrong.

Are we really going to say something like, dracons are so powerful it would be best to remove them from the game?

Please god no more new races. Can we give the fish back?

Some races are better than others. I doubt there will be a perfect balance short of everyone being a human.

No new races.

#23 Thaen

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 02:35 AM

It's not that Dracons are overpowered. That's far from the fact since there's about 2 good dracons in the history of ever.

It's just that the race as a whole is absurd. It's like that episode of south park with the ninja weapons. Somebody decided to just keep giving them more and more and more.

If Dracons were to be removed they could be split into two races with their unique benefits, such as a Lizardman and Birdperson that can both act as evil races and have their own unique traits instead of an all in one race. Also Dracons are gay.

I'm in complete favor of removing Sahuagin as a playable race and forcing every Sahuagin that logs in to remort their race. I don't know why anybody ever thought that was a good thing to add to the game to begin with.

#24 Voramyd

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 04:10 AM

Correction, this thread is like the ninja weapons episode of south park.

Gezus, I never said sanity was not important. Only that if wisdom and knowledge were adjusted to be much more important. Also, last I recalled... sanity only affected SP regeneration at endgame. That is, seeing as most any archon has 100% SCC. Unless, sanity plays a role in certain spells(other than counter spell).

While the sahuagin race is not that balanced and even less needed, it is here. If each race had functioning bonuses, perhaps the balance would not be viewed as so imbalanced.

Dracon is fine as is. There are plenty of powerful, evil races. What need is there to split dracon down the middle and alter the entire history of the realm? That type of comment makes velocitaur seem like a new plausible race...

#25 Thaen

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 07:09 AM

Sanity is a very important stat beyond sp regen. It helps primarily in the success of spell casts. As an example: On one of my drow archons with 75% slow and 25 sanity I fumble slow about 1/5 casts. On my 21 sanity human with 75% slow I fumble about 3/5 casts.

The idea behind splitting Dracon into two races is more or less for more roleplay/immersion value. None of the lore would change, in fact it would have a potential to evolve Dracons into a global menace. Imagine new content throughout the year based around fighting off an actual rebellion unlike the witches that just idle in Decara all day with their brooms up their butts.

Personally I'd like to play a winged race but I refuse to play a Dracon on the sole principle that Dragons are stupid and so are their inbred retarded children. Faeries are also by far out of the question since they just suck these days.

Kenku could fit the role of a mountain species.
Lizardmen could be an intensely aggressive jungle species.
Turtles would just be awesome.

Back on to the original topic, for an evil finesse based race I'd like to see consideration for Skaven. Currently the most agile evil race we have is Drow which is more along the lines of a caster race. Also: Rats are awesome.