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Empire's URL


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#51 Guest_pechini_*

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Posted 22 July 2000 - 09:37 PM

Funny Calina, you don't know anything about me either, but feel confident going on and on about who or what I am.

I'm from Detroit, you think you're dirty lil Irish comments scare me?

Misinformation, subtle intimidation....noone buys it anymore, give up, you're nothing, you lose.

Pechini




#52 Guest_sveth_*

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Posted 23 July 2000 - 05:07 AM

Just a thought: perhaps its time to take this to tells. This goes for both the Pechini and Calina accusation of lowlife status argument and the Calina and Rigo political debate concerning northern ireland. I was going to say something to that guy that keeps asking for a ferry service, but you guys blew him out of the water when it comes from off topic posting (both off topic for the board and the thread both). As people have said before, most of us don't care. Alot of us play this game for an escape from our normal day to day humdum and would rather leave such real life death threats and moral debate behind us when we log on. I would much rather hop into a debate on whether or not it was immoral to PK newbies than say anything about what the Empire's URL thread has degraded into.

Thats pretty pathetic, the thought that a thread that started with finger pointing and demands for deletion of people somebody didn't like actually managed to go downhill from there. I didn't think at the time it was possible.

Now, the biggest accusation I've heard against Empire (and quite honestly the only one I care about at all) is the one concerning DOSing the game. Now, this was something I had heard before (which in no way makes it true), but I'd like to throw out the fact that if anyone actually does do this then (regardless of who it is) the best recourse may well be to bring a lawsuit against the player for damages. You pay for the internet connection, and the longer it is down then the more it has cost you. If they are using a hacked connection to do it, then you will see charges of computer fraud most likely following as well. First person to go to court for it will most likely stop the rest cold on trying to make threats against the game.

Sveth
just ain't gonna sit and take it anymore, now he intends to stand and take it.

#53 Guest_pechini_*

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Posted 23 July 2000 - 08:50 AM

While in spirt I agree with you Sveth, I think the point I was trying to make is that Empire members can basicly do whatever they want, be it harassment, botting, exploiting bugs, DOSing it doesn't matter. They won't now, nor will they ever be punished. Do you really think Vass or anyone else will bring the authorities into it?

Noone called for the deletion of anyone here, only for the rules which are well known to the players, well documented and posted to be followed. AND punishment for flagrant breaking of the rules. I'm pointing out that those rules can be flagrantly broken IN PUBLIC on this forum and still nothing will be done.

I basicly think the rules should just be deleted. Why have them if they won't be enforced. My suspicion is that the rules are there to protect Vassago from prosecution and there is no INTENTION of enforcing the rules. Those with a problem with the rules not being enforced will simply leave, and only when enough people leave in effort to have rules enforced will anything be done.

Anyone ask Enigma when they quit being helpful, got poor attitudes toward the game, began cheating themselves etc...most of those attitudes can be traced back to Dark Order being CAUGHT cloning eq/vandy orbs and got little or no punishment. They stopped helping newbies because 80% of them were alts and they'd eventually get stabbed in the back. When you play a game and the rules can be broken with little or no punishment, and then those players with cheated stats can now kick your ass what do you do?

The pattern has been set, not punishing rule breakers has invited everyone to break the rules. Those players that still care about fair play are tired of being told "You see someone breaking a rule, log it and report it" only for it to be blown off, and eventually be the brunt of everyone's scorn because they continue to say QUIT BREAKING RULES AND GET RID OF THOSE THAT DO.

I just don't see where anyone has picked on anyone here or called for deletion based on not liking them. I just think that more people are pointing out that the rulebreaking needs to end.

Pechini


#54 Vassago

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Posted 23 July 2000 - 09:35 AM

I'm not going to respond really to all of these posts and dirt being flung back and forth on this Clan Forum, besides to say:

"I'm sorry you feel that way, Pechini. However, your opinions are biased and incorrect in the matter of the rules not being enforced. Heresy and speculation may be grounds for deletion or punishment of people in your mind, but in order to maintain my standards of fairness as regarding the rules, I require more than that for proof."

And, as an addition: If you could see the number of emails about x being caught and punished for y that get sent across the immortal mailing list daily, you'd think twice before spouting such ill-informed speculation.

I'm sure you think you need to respond to this statement, and that's up to you, but I think I've said all I need. Have the last word if you feel you need to.

Vassago


#55 Darrod

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Posted 23 July 2000 - 10:40 AM

Calina even threaten to kill people irl on a mud, not only to me but to others too. I mean, should that be tolerated?!

#56 Raistlin

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Posted 23 July 2000 - 01:19 PM

Calina, I can name and locate every single damn country in this entire world. I'd like to see you do the same. Oddly, your name seems to be the poster of every other post. I find it quite fascinating that you're continuing this subject, even though it's apparant everybody on this thread is purposefully teasing you...

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#57 Guest_eochai_*

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Posted 23 July 2000 - 02:42 PM

Um Vassago how bout adding a new section to the site or a thing the the announcement channel saying who got cought for what it would be a better form of punishment and not many people would like to have everyone bother them cause they got cought botting or something else so they might not do it.

Eochai

#58 Guest_sveth_*

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Posted 23 July 2000 - 06:16 PM

Yeah, I have to agree with Eochai that it would be good to post somewhere crimes and penalties. First off, it would be an additional form of punishment to do it public, and secondly it would shut off any questions of favoratism and lack or enforcement on the part of the Imms. As is the only punishment asside from the character freezes for multiplay that I heard about on the board that I know of was one for botting...and the punishment was the removal of the quest gear that was purchased by the quest botter...while he was left with the practics and xp. I don't know about anyone else, but I quest mainly for the practices and consider the qp a nifty bonus. Thats like catching a bank robber and taking away just the coins that he stole, while letting him keep the bills.

The point of mentioning that though isn't an accusation against the Imms so much as an example of the kind of questionable stuff that is all many of us ever hear about. If all that info was up front where people could see it then there would be no questions except from newbies (but then you could at least direct them towards an actual source of info instead of infecting them with your own prejudice).

Quite honestly, I have to say that there is an underlying disrespect for the rules of the game. I have had many people casually mention that they have done something which involved breaking the rules to me, and its often people I don't even know well. Illegal CPKs, trading characters, ect. For the rules to matter, people must fear the reprisals of the law enforcement, which at the moment they don't. A visible show of exactly what such disrespect for the rules brings might help restore some order to things.

As is, the only reason not to break the rules that I actually see (my own sence of honor being a different story altogether) is that there are a few people that will look down on you for doing it. A very few. I must say that it ultamately influenced my clan choise (which I'm sure will get laughs, since the way it influenced it was by showing me that every clan has its cheaters, so if I want to join one I have to deal with the fact that rule breakers are unavoidable). Since the only power that exists now with any force is a social one, those of us who act honorable may as well make use of it.

The thing is that those of us who do try to fight aganist the rampant cheating are in an uphill battle. The fact of the matter is that cheating works. Botters will always have a numberical advantage over those who do things the hard way. People who PK others illegally remove part of the victoms ability to compete back. With the importance of PK in this game, power directly equals respectability in a quick manor. Since few people care where you got that power, the cheaters even have a social advantage manifest in their strength.

Efforts are being made now to combat this, I'm sure, but since you are fighting something that is so widespread and has nearly everything going for it, you have to take away things that no amount of cheating can restore to actually hurt the cheaters. What does being deleted matter to a botter? Did they put any real effort into thier character in the first place? What about deletion to a character who was illegally purchased? Site banning seems to have tons of problems since the serious cheaters can easily get around it. Vass, the only way that you will be able to regain control of your game is by hitting people in a way that they cannot fight back, and such an action as a public posting of crimes and punishments would be a large step in gaining such improvements.

Sveth

#59 Vassago

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Posted 23 July 2000 - 11:06 PM

Do you honestly think posting punishments would stop those who are proud of what they do - despite the punishments - and talk about it? No, instead they'd see it as a badge of honor. Imagine a "top ten rule violators list". They'd be proud to be public enemy number one.

It's a losing battle, but it's not one I am going to give up trying - if we stopped enforcing the rules (as much as we can), it would be far, far worse. It's better to hard code solutions where we can, that have minimal impact on the "good" players.

We do have a little something planned for Saints and Outlaws that should make it more interesting, and will distract some of the cheaters, anyway.

Vassago


#60 Guest_pechini_*

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Posted 24 July 2000 - 12:55 AM

2nd try

Thank You Vassao for illustrating my point.

and 2. the people who continually call for rule breakers to be punished wind up the brunt of scorn>

Pechini





#61 Guest_jonjon_*

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Posted 24 July 2000 - 02:01 AM

I suggest this if you feel someone is breaking rules/cheating you gather your evidence and present it to a morals court composed of imms and if they are found guilty they are punished if not the accuser is punished

Jonjon Known cheater of [e]

P.S. And for us not adding to the game positivly we have suggest quite a bit of the present thing and our clan named roughly 75% of the new hunter among or things not yet imped


#62 Teriklar

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Posted 24 July 2000 - 08:15 AM

Vass if you ended up with a list of the top ten criminals of MG then you obviously haven't punished them enough.

The stance you're taking on the board about prevention vs punishment only serves to screw with those of us who are trying to play the game honestly...the wind on the lakes and the different anti-botting tweaks you did for questing are the main things that stick out in my mind.

Think about the kids who were spanked for misbehaving when they were growing up. Most people I know with that kind of discipline as a child are good kids because they had something to be afraid of of they get in trouble. People who just got grounded? That's nothing cause you can always get around bring grounded. It's like a game for those people the same as cheating is here...if you don't hit them with something that really hits home, they're gonna keep disregarding the rules because all they'll get is a tap on the wrist. And it's all well and good that you can say "You guys should look at the imm mail to see everyone who gets in trouble" but until you can give us people a way to see these tons of people you catch, I don't think a one of us are really believing that you are.

And I'm not directing this at Empire cheats cause I want them deleted and never allowed to play again. This is for anyone who's gonna break the rules...put the smack down on them. I mean sure freezing sucks but you can always make an alt...but stuff like eq/gold confiscation, hp/sp/st penalties, loss of qps/prs...getting demoted in levels, stat penalties...SOMEthing that has a more lasting effect than just freezing.

#63 Guest_radagar_*

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Posted 24 July 2000 - 08:54 AM

If we would not punish empire for message board stuff, then exactly what would we punish them for? CPKing people?
I just want a few concrete examples of what empire people do that is so bad (other than use bad language)

Radagar

#64 Guest_eckis_*

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Posted 24 July 2000 - 06:04 PM

HEH! Pechini you're a fucking retard. Not only do I get punished anytime I do anything even remotely illegal, I get punished a lot of the time for doing nothing. Stop bitching, no one likes you or cares about what you have to say!@#

#65 Cerridwen

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Posted 24 July 2000 - 07:41 PM

Actually Eckis, people do care. There would'nt be post arguing back and forth if no one did. You also brought whatever hell hole it is you have to deal with on MM upon yourself. Try getting pitty from people who give a shit.

#66 Guest_sveth_*

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Posted 25 July 2000 - 05:42 AM

Vass, while I agree with you in theory, I have to say that ultamately I believe your attitude on the matter to be shortsighted. If you ask law enforcement officials anywhere, you will be told that the purpose of thier duties is to both punish those who break the law, and also prevent others from trying to do the same by creating fear of the punishment. Right now, I can't think of a single person, myself included, who even considers fear of punishment a reason not to break all of your rules. People believe either that the punishments don't exist, will be thrown out at random at those who don't realize that they appear to be breaking them (while letting those who do break them get away with it since they cover thier tracks), or that the punishments that are handed out are so mild as to be not worth considering.

Now yes, you should consider the possibility of people being proud of the naughtyness they commit. But I find it hard to believe that it is fun for very long at all to be proud of what your cheating earned you when you don't have a character anymore. Quite honestly, I only see that happening for a while untill such time as those people get really bored and leave. Thats what we should be seeing now, but when I hear Eckis say hes been punished alot and is still here, then obviously the punishments arn't harsh enough.

Vass, unless you have basically turned over control of the game to those who would threaten it (something that some people already believe to be true) you can't lose by doing this. It solves both a huge PR problem (the one where the Imms say 'people are being caught and punished constantly' and everyone else just nods and assumes you're lying) and creates additional social preasure to not cheat.

Heres an example of how it might work: I make a Clan, but in the Clan rules I state that you must follow the rules of the game to be a member. When someone asks to get into the clan, I look at the list. I'd also check the list piriodically to see if the current clan members were on it. Suddenly there is a social preasure to not break the rules. I'd imagine that my imaginary clan would have quite a few real counterparts.

Now I agree with hard coded solutions as being great, how do you intend to actually stop people from trading characters or botting with a hard coded solution? Untill IMotion comes out you can't, and last I heard IMotion is still a long way off. This thing that I am suggesting simply requires the public posting of information that I am told the Imms keep records of anyways. I wouldn't be suprised if they could just be posted on the web as they are, since the geographically scattered Imms would need to access them.

Sveth

#67 Guest_pechini_*

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Posted 25 July 2000 - 08:28 AM

I believe that Sveth brings up two really good points when (s)he states that if rule violations were pubicly posted that (1)the people in the game who don't condone breaking the rules will step up and participate and (2)will serve to convince people like myself who sees people break the rules on a daily basis not be punished.

I don't think I'm the only person who sees rule violators go unpunished. I will admit to being the loudest though. So while you beileve my opinion to be "biased and incorrect" I would like to point out to you the 7 letters I've sent in regarding rule breaking personally, none of which resulted in punishment. Now perhaps I should define punishment, I believe punishment to be something that will make the person regret having broken the rule to begin with, and deter them from ever thinking about doing it again, so as Sveth puts it, in your mind you may have had a strict talking to with the violators that I've reported, but they neither regret, nor has it detered them as you can personally see by the posts in this thread.

What exactly is it that someone has to do to appeal to your "sense of fairplay" ? All I did is get pissed off after having a group of people harass me constantly in the game and not have anything happen to them, and you KNOW nothing happened to them. In your mind I brought it on and/or deserved the harassment.

I didn't bring on *any* personal comments that have been said in this thread, I've told the truth as is my experience as well as my sight when it happened to others. I didn't bash anyone personally except to call Calina nothing but that was only after car bomb threats. My posts have been adult in nature and while perhaps you don't agree completely even you have to see that my point is shared by more players then you thought.

I challenge you to prove me wrong in my opinion that rule violators aren't punished to a degree that deters them from further violations. I believe the perfect way to do that is as Sveth suggests and make the punishments public.

Pechini

#68 Vassago

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Posted 25 July 2000 - 10:47 AM

We HAVE hp/st/sp reduction in for botting, and it has been working effectively on that. But once again, we are handling it as effectively as is possible right now. I am open to suggestions but I'd be surprised if you could suggest something that hasn't already been tried. We've been up for about 6 years now, and have the experience in dealing with these types of people.

I'm also not going to have Pechini's simplistic view of things where she thinks that unless we delete someone or cut off their hands that we aren't punishing them. There is a cumulative demerit/punishment system in place for 4.0, we have been testing this new system. I think it's about time we examine it for effectiveness and make changes where appropriate, which we had planned on doing about this time anyway.

Vassago

#69 Vassago

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Posted 25 July 2000 - 10:51 AM

I am NOT going to post people's punishments publically. That is between the punishing Immortal and the rule violator. This is not going to turn into a witch hunt.

What might be a good idea is for a player rating system, so people can see who's trustworthy and who isn't. For example, the rating system in eBay shows who has had complaints filed against them and who hasn't. That kind of thing would serve to warn people about doing trading or any other type of commerce with a person who has lots of marks against them.

That way, it's up to you all to inform others of problem players, and it might give people a good place to vent as well rather than in these message boards.

Vassago

#70 Vassago

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Posted 25 July 2000 - 10:58 AM

I challenge YOU, Pechini, to show me a system of punishment for law violations that works. If the American system worked as well as it should, we wouldn't have to implement things like the "Three Strikes" laws and other such rulings.

So what you're basically asking me to do is implement a punishment system that will deter people from doing it again, which isn't possible even in non-virtual society. I'm flattered that you have such a high opinion of my omnipotence, but even I have limits.

Vassago


#71 Guest_pechini_*

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Posted 25 July 2000 - 12:35 PM

rule breaking offense 1 warning
rule breaking offense 2 30 day freeze
rule breaking offense 3 deletion

make an alt and break 4 site ban
still wanna break rules? *all alts deleted, all sites caught on baned*

Whats the big deal? Why do you have to have a system that treats each seperate rule differently?You make it seem like I ask for unjust punishment for people who are CHEATING!!!!! Fine make a little asterisk next to the person's name that is some sort of color based on thier rules violation status. If someone can go 30 days without breaking a rule, bump them down a notch, or 60 days or 90 days or whatever, giving those who haven't INTENIONALLY gone out of thier way to cheat the system have a chance to go back to non-cheater status. Or those who see the error of thier ways have a chance for redemption as well. Anyone who TRUELY cares about the rules will have a chance to redeem themselves, those that don't are gone. Those that break the same rule intensionally after losing status, bump them up twice, this prevents a person from cheating, waiting the time period and going back to cheating. All in all, the little cheater will will stop and the big cheaters will eventually get rid of themselves.

Do you honestly think I'm talking about the little guy who maybe multiplays for 1.5 minutes to change eq, or has a decent set of triggers?
Please, I'm not a tyrant. Quit making me out to be the bad guy...OBVIOUSLY whatever is being done isn't working because if you come on after about 1am and look at a who, you see about 30 people in the wilds, you send them a HI HOW ARE YOU TONIGHT and boom, they log off. This is consistant every weeknight No I don't take names, and I don't log. Jeeze you would think that the system would keep track of how many levels someone has against how many unbotted things they do. How are people playing 24/7 making 20 levels a day? I don't care who you are, or how many drugs you do, you have to sleep at some point.

Make a list of players who aren't guides or Imm's who can report cheating anonomously so the players who want to bot all night long don't even know who they are who have the ability to check for botting/other rules violations and transfer them to your office for punishment implementation. No second chances, if someone is accused wrongfully, to freaking bad, they have the time period to get off status. Or even 1 better, make a player based appeals board who will only hear cases with merit. Anyone accused wrongfully will see the merit of the system for 30 days and get off status. Make it so if you have status, you can't be in a clan, participate in global quests etc.

Your suggestion of a rating system is much the same as mine, except that what do you honestly think will happen there, you say someting in a wrong tone to Eckis results in him and 25 of his alts giving you a bad rating. I expect the immortal staff to be UNBIASED, punish friend and foe equally. If I break a rule, I know it, and I expect punishment for it. But I don't break rules, I don't bot, I don't skill bot, I barely send other people tells unsolicited let alone spam them with harassment. I don't clone eq, I don't DOS I don't exploit bugs, or even unthought up holes. Ok I am guilty of letting my vandy bag trigger keep going if I go get coffee or answer the door.
If you feel that's punishable, then do it and I'll turn off the trigger when I go get coffee.

Fact is I DON'T CHEAT, and it isn't a bad thing on my part to want PEOPLE WHO DO gone.

And you asked me why the system in america is so bad exampling 3 times you're out? 3 is way to many chances. Period. Time to get rid of the freaking bleeding heart librals "Oh he had a bad upbringing, society was hard on him", there is no excuse. Just ask the victims on time 2 and 3.

Noone would be afraid of this system or think it's unjust.

Pechini


#72 Guest_thrane_*

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Posted 25 July 2000 - 02:14 PM

Wow Pechini...

I am sorry you have been harrased in MG...but you have no support from me for your MG criminal justice system suggestion. You lost my support when you said anybody who is active in the wilds at 1 am in YOUR time zone is likely to be some criminal. Do you understand the world has 23 times zones different than yours? My clan has had european, australian and north american members. Times that seem late night to you may be prime time to others.

I don't bot..I am not good enough with triggers to be able to bot, and sure hate to see folks who may live in other timezones suspect I am botting if I am active when they would like to be sleeping. If you send me a tell when I am active in the wilds...I am gonna put you on ignore.

Thrane

#73 Guest_pechini_*

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Posted 25 July 2000 - 03:09 PM

Well first, I didn't say anyone in the wilds at 1am is botting.

Second, the time is signaficant in that's the time that the game is least busy, and few if any Imm's are present, those that are are usually building and not paying attention or idle. What better time to bot but when there's no Imm's around. It's starts at 1am-2am eastern time and gets worse as the night progresses....

The only people who have something to fear from this type of system are those that cheat, and those that condone cheating.

I didn't single you out...or accuse you of anything...

Pechini

#74 Quiet

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Posted 25 July 2000 - 05:32 PM

eBay's big problem with the moral-grade thing is that immoral friends would make small purchases with one another and give them the highest rating, thus boosting their pallid score, given to them by real people, to that which a good buyer/seller would normally have. There's really no good way to do this. Period.

#75 Vlamcer

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Posted 25 July 2000 - 06:10 PM

In Vassago we trust!

Enjoy!