Posted 22 July 2000 - 09:37 PM
I'm from Detroit, you think you're dirty lil Irish comments scare me?
Misinformation, subtle intimidation....noone buys it anymore, give up, you're nothing, you lose.
Posted 23 July 2000 - 05:07 AM
Thats pretty pathetic, the thought that a thread that started with finger pointing and demands for deletion of people somebody didn't like actually managed to go downhill from there. I didn't think at the time it was possible.
Now, the biggest accusation I've heard against Empire (and quite honestly the only one I care about at all) is the one concerning DOSing the game. Now, this was something I had heard before (which in no way makes it true), but I'd like to throw out the fact that if anyone actually does do this then (regardless of who it is) the best recourse may well be to bring a lawsuit against the player for damages. You pay for the internet connection, and the longer it is down then the more it has cost you. If they are using a hacked connection to do it, then you will see charges of computer fraud most likely following as well. First person to go to court for it will most likely stop the rest cold on trying to make threats against the game.
just ain't gonna sit and take it anymore, now he intends to stand and take it.
Posted 23 July 2000 - 08:50 AM
Noone called for the deletion of anyone here, only for the rules which are well known to the players, well documented and posted to be followed. AND punishment
I basicly think the rules should just be deleted. Why have them if they won't be enforced. My suspicion is that the rules are there to protect Vassago from prosecution and there is no INTENTION of enforcing the rules. Those with a problem with the rules not being enforced will simply leave, and only when enough people leave in effort to have rules enforced will anything be done.
Anyone ask Enigma when they quit being helpful, got poor attitudes toward the game, began cheating themselves etc...most of those attitudes can be traced back to Dark Order being CAUGHT cloning eq/vandy orbs and got little or no punishment. They stopped helping newbies because 80% of them were alts and they'd eventually get stabbed in the back. When you play a game and the rules can be broken with little or no punishment, and then those players with cheated stats can now kick your ass what do you do?
The pattern has been set, not punishing rule breakers has invited everyone to break the rules. Those players that still care about fair play are tired of being told "You see someone breaking a rule, log it and report it" only for it to be blown off, and eventually be the brunt of everyone's scorn because they continue to say QUIT BREAKING RULES AND GET RID OF THOSE THAT DO.
I just don't see where anyone has picked on anyone here or called for deletion based on not liking them.
Posted 23 July 2000 - 09:35 AM
"I'm sorry you feel that way, Pechini. However, your opinions are biased and incorrect in the matter of the rules not being enforced. Heresy and speculation may be grounds for deletion or punishment of people in your mind, but in order to maintain my standards of fairness as regarding the rules, I require more than that for proof."
And, as an addition: If you could see the number of emails about x being caught and punished for y that get sent across the immortal mailing list daily, you'd think twice before spouting such ill-informed speculation.
I'm sure you think you need to respond to this statement, and that's up to you, but I think I've said all I need. Have the last word if you feel you need to.
Posted 23 July 2000 - 10:40 AM
Posted 23 July 2000 - 01:19 PM
Posted 23 July 2000 - 02:42 PM
Posted 23 July 2000 - 06:16 PM
The point of mentioning that though isn't an accusation against the Imms so much as an example of the kind of questionable stuff that is all many of us ever hear about. If all that info was up front where people could see it then there would be no questions except from newbies (but then you could at least direct them towards an actual source of info instead of infecting them with your own prejudice).
Quite honestly, I have to say that there is an underlying disrespect for the rules of the game. I have had many people casually mention that they have done something which involved breaking the rules to me, and its often people I don't even know well. Illegal CPKs, trading characters, ect. For the rules to matter, people must fear the reprisals of the law enforcement, which at the moment they don't. A visible show of exactly what such disrespect for the rules brings might help restore some order to things.
As is, the only reason not to break the rules that I actually see (my own sence of honor being a different story altogether) is that there are a few people that will look down on you for doing it. A very few. I must say that it ultamately influenced my clan choise (which I'm sure will get laughs, since the way it influenced it was by showing me that every clan has its cheaters, so if I want to join one I have to deal with the fact that rule breakers are unavoidable). Since the only power that exists now with any force is a social one, those of us who act honorable may as well make use of it.
The thing is that those of us who do try to fight aganist the rampant cheating are in an uphill battle. The fact of the matter is that cheating works. Botters will always have a numberical advantage over those who do things the hard way. People who PK others illegally remove part of the victoms ability to compete back. With the importance of PK in this game, power directly equals respectability in a quick manor. Since few people care where you got that power, the cheaters even have a social advantage manifest in their strength.
Efforts are being made now to combat this, I'm sure, but since you are fighting something that is so widespread and has nearly everything going for it, you have to take away things that no amount of cheating can restore to actually hurt the cheaters. What does being deleted matter to a botter? Did they put any real effort into thier character in the first place? What about deletion to a character who was illegally purchased? Site banning seems to have tons of problems since the serious cheaters can easily get around it. Vass, the only way that you will be able to regain control of your game is by hitting people in a way that they cannot fight back, and such an action as a public posting of crimes and punishments would be a large step in gaining such improvements.
Posted 23 July 2000 - 11:06 PM
It's a losing battle, but it's not one I am going to give up trying - if we stopped enforcing the rules (as much as we can), it would be far, far worse. It's better to hard code solutions where we can, that have minimal impact on the "good" players.
We do have a little something planned for Saints and Outlaws that should make it more interesting, and will distract some of the cheaters, anyway.
Posted 24 July 2000 - 12:55 AM
Thank You Vassao for illustrating my point.
Posted 24 July 2000 - 02:01 AM
Jonjon Known cheater of [e]
P.S. And for us not adding to the game positivly we have suggest quite a bit of the present thing and our clan named roughly 75% of the new hunter among or things not yet imped
Posted 24 July 2000 - 08:15 AM
The stance you're taking on the board about prevention vs punishment only serves to screw with those of us who are trying to play the game honestly...the wind on the lakes and the different anti-botting tweaks you did for questing are the main things that stick out in my mind.
Think about the kids who were spanked for misbehaving when they were growing up. Most people I know with that kind of discipline as a child are good kids because they had something to be afraid of of they get in trouble. People who just got grounded? That's nothing cause you can always get around bring grounded. It's like a game for those people the same as cheating is here...if you don't hit them with something that really hits home, they're gonna keep disregarding the rules because all they'll get is a tap on the wrist. And it's all well and good that you can say "You guys should look at the imm mail to see everyone who gets in trouble" but until you can give us people a way to see these tons of people you catch, I don't think a one of us are really believing that you are.
And I'm not directing this at Empire cheats cause I want them deleted and never allowed to play again. This is for anyone who's gonna break the rules...put the smack down on them. I mean sure freezing sucks but you can always make an alt...but stuff like eq/gold confiscation, hp/sp/st penalties, loss of qps/prs...getting demoted in levels, stat penalties...SOMEthing that has a more lasting effect than just freezing.
Posted 24 July 2000 - 08:54 AM
I just want a few concrete examples of what empire people do that is so bad (other than use bad language)
Posted 24 July 2000 - 06:04 PM
Posted 24 July 2000 - 07:41 PM
Posted 25 July 2000 - 05:42 AM
Now yes, you should consider the possibility of people being proud of the naughtyness they commit. But I find it hard to believe that it is fun for very long at all to be proud of what your cheating earned you when you don't have a character anymore. Quite honestly, I only see that happening for a while untill such time as those people get really bored and leave. Thats what we should be seeing now, but when I hear Eckis say hes been punished alot and is still here, then obviously the punishments arn't harsh enough.
Vass, unless you have basically turned over control of the game to those who would threaten it (something that some people already believe to be true) you can't lose by doing this. It solves both a huge PR problem (the one where the Imms say 'people are being caught and punished constantly' and everyone else just nods and assumes you're lying) and creates additional social preasure to not cheat.
Heres an example of how it might work: I make a Clan, but in the Clan rules I state that you must follow the rules of the game to be a member. When someone asks to get into the clan, I look at the list. I'd also check the list piriodically to see if the current clan members were on it. Suddenly there is a social preasure to not break the rules. I'd imagine that my imaginary clan would have quite a few real counterparts.
Now I agree with hard coded solutions as being great, how do you intend to actually stop people from trading characters or botting with a hard coded solution? Untill IMotion comes out you can't, and last I heard IMotion is still a long way off. This thing that I am suggesting simply requires the public posting of information that I am told the Imms keep records of anyways. I wouldn't be suprised if they could just be posted on the web as they are, since the geographically scattered Imms would need to access them.
Posted 25 July 2000 - 08:28 AM
I don't think I'm the only person who sees rule violators go unpunished. I will admit to being the loudest though. So while you beileve my opinion to be "biased and incorrect" I would like to point out to you the 7 letters I've sent in regarding rule breaking personally, none of which resulted in punishment. Now perhaps I should define punishment, I believe punishment to be something that will make the person regret having broken the rule to begin with, and deter them from ever thinking about doing it again, so as Sveth puts it, in your mind you may have had a strict talking to with the violators that I've reported, but they neither regret, nor has it detered them as you can personally see by the posts in this thread.
What exactly is it that someone has to do to appeal to your "sense of fairplay" ? All I did is get pissed off after having a group of people harass me constantly in the game and not have anything happen to them, and you KNOW nothing happened to them. In your mind I brought it on and/or deserved the harassment.
I didn't bring on *any* personal comments that have been said in this thread, I've told the truth as is my experience as well as my sight when it happened to others. I didn't bash anyone personally except to call Calina nothing but that was only after car bomb threats. My posts have been adult in nature and while perhaps you don't agree completely even you have to see that my point is shared by more players then you thought.
I challenge you to prove me wrong in my opinion that rule violators aren't punished to a degree that deters them from further violations. I believe the perfect way to do that is as Sveth suggests and make the punishments public.
Posted 25 July 2000 - 10:47 AM
I'm also not going to have Pechini's simplistic view of things where she thinks that unless we delete someone or cut off their hands that we aren't punishing them. There is a cumulative demerit/punishment system in place for 4.0, we have been testing this new system. I think it's about time we examine it for effectiveness and make changes where appropriate, which we had planned on doing about this time anyway.
Posted 25 July 2000 - 10:51 AM
What might be a good idea is for a player rating system, so people can see who's trustworthy and who isn't. For example, the rating system in eBay shows who has had complaints filed against them and who hasn't. That kind of thing would serve to warn people about doing trading or any other type of commerce with a person who has lots of marks against them.
That way, it's up to you all to inform others of problem players, and it might give people a good place to vent as well rather than in these message boards.
Posted 25 July 2000 - 10:58 AM
So what you're basically asking me to do is implement a punishment system that will deter people from doing it again, which isn't possible even in non-virtual society. I'm flattered that you have such a high opinion of my omnipotence, but even I have limits.
Posted 25 July 2000 - 12:35 PM
rule breaking offense 2
rule breaking offense 3
make an alt and break 4
still wanna break rules? *all alts deleted, all sites caught on baned*
Whats the big deal? Why do you have to have a system that treats each seperate rule differently?You make it seem like I ask for unjust punishment for people who are CHEATING!!!!!
Do you honestly think I'm talking about the little guy who maybe multiplays for 1.5 minutes to change eq, or has a decent set of triggers?
Please, I'm not a tyrant. Quit making me out to be the bad guy...OBVIOUSLY whatever is being done isn't working because if you come on after about 1am and look at a who, you see about 30 people in the wilds, you send them a HI HOW ARE YOU TONIGHT and boom, they log off. This is consistant every weeknight
Make a list of players
Your suggestion of a rating system is much the same as mine, except that what do you honestly think will happen there, you say someting in a wrong tone to Eckis results in him and 25 of his alts giving you a bad rating. I expect the immortal staff to be UNBIASED, punish friend and foe equally. If I break a rule, I know it, and I expect punishment for it. But I don't break rules, I don't bot, I don't skill bot, I barely send other people tells unsolicited let alone spam them with harassment. I don't clone eq, I don't DOS
If you feel that's punishable, then do it and I'll turn off the trigger when I go get coffee.
Fact is I DON'T CHEAT, and it isn't a bad thing on my part to want PEOPLE WHO DO gone.
And you asked me why the system in america is so bad exampling 3 times you're out? 3 is way to many chances. Period. Time to get rid of the freaking bleeding heart librals "Oh he had a bad upbringing, society was hard on him", there is no excuse. Just ask the victims on time 2 and 3.
Posted 25 July 2000 - 02:14 PM
I am sorry you have been harrased in MG...but you have no support from me for your MG criminal justice system suggestion. You lost my support when you said anybody who is active in the wilds at 1 am in YOUR time zone is likely to be some criminal. Do you understand the world has 23 times zones different than yours? My clan has had european, australian and north american members. Times that seem late night to you may be prime time to others.
I don't bot..I am not good enough with triggers to be able to bot, and sure hate to see folks who may live in other timezones suspect I am botting if I am active when they would like to be sleeping. If you send me a tell when I am active in the wilds...I am gonna put you on ignore.
Posted 25 July 2000 - 03:09 PM
Second, the time is signaficant in that's the time that the game is least busy, and few if any Imm's are present, those that are are usually building and not paying attention or idle. What better time to bot but when there's no Imm's around. It's starts at 1am-2am eastern time and gets worse as the night progresses....
The only people who have something to fear from this type of system are those that cheat, and those that condone cheating.
I didn't single you out...or accuse you of anything...
Posted 25 July 2000 - 05:32 PM